“College Students And Guns A Volatile Mix”

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Since the shootings on the Virginia Tech campus last spring, colleges across the nation have scrambled to do something about campus security and methods used to alert students of danger and to secure campuses. It seems that most of the focus has been on alerting students through text messaging, emails, etc. and tracking mentally ill students. Not enough seems to be getting done to return Second Amendment rights to college students in order that they can defend themselves.

And why not? That’s simple. When you read information in the media like this,

While many college administrators say guns and students are a volatile mix that could lead to more violence…….

it clearly shows that college administrators are dumber than a fence post. That statement is the biggest crock! Maybe these educated fools running our universities could try something intelligent for a change and provide some statistics that show that a gun in the hand of the average college student is a “volatile mix” that leads to more violence.

Here’s another absolutely ridiculous law and one that I’m sure is in violation of one’s Constitutional rights.

One state, Nebraska, added colleges to the places where concealed guns are automatically banned, while Nevada now requires any college student caught with a gun to take a drug test and get counseling.

So it is automatically assumed that anyone in possession of a gun is on drugs and is mentally deranged? How nice, mein Furor!

A better use of this law should be turned around onto the college administrators. Any administrator who makes a law that clearly goes against our guaranteed rights under the Constitution, should be required to take a drug test and get counseling. After all, it is my opinion that a college administrator and the power to create laws is a volatile mix and could lead to more violence, as witnessed at Virginia Tech.

While it is a good idea for college campuses nationwide to be reviewing their campus security plans, it is time once and for all, for the citizens of this country to be able to freely enjoy the rights guaranteed them. No college administrator, city mayor, etc. should have the power to strip Americans of their Constitutional rights.

Tom Remington

http://deerPhD.com Bryan

Tom,

I totally respect your perspective on all issues on this blog. You do your research and write excellent articles.

That being said, I have a bit of an issue when it comes to the idea that college students and bearing arms. I’m writing from the perspective of an individual who has taught several classes at a University, and aspires to be a professor (if ever grad school ends!).

I understand that we, as Americans, have a right to bear arms. However, I would be terrified if my students came to class with weapons…or even if I knew they had arms in their dormitories. We have to remember that most college students are still adolescents. Even if the individual bearer is responsible, what about his/her roommate…or friend of a roommate? There isn’t room in most dormitories for gun safes, so what about accidents? Is it really worth the risk?

Personally, I do not see the need for weapons on campus. You’ve stated in a previous post that weapons may have prevented the tragic events at Virginia Tech. Perhaps…but weapons on campus may also lead to other tragic events.
http://BlackBearBlog,com Tom Remington

Bryan – First let me thank you for coming here in a sane and respectful manner on an issue that is highly debated and often becomes emotional. That doesn’t happen often.

We all have our takes on guns. Yours as near as I can tell, seems to be based solely on the emotions of fear and distrust rather than reasoning and facts or evidence to back up your claims.

Had you told us that your fear was based on being shot at once by a student, then I could clearly understand your reasoning of fear.

From the information you have shared, I can reasonably conclude that you are relatively young, meaning you have grown up in a society that has brainwashed our children into believing that guns are evil things that caused normal people to pick them up one day and needlessly slaughter innocent people.

Are we to automatically label college students as criminals who haven’t been brought up in a way that could make them make rational and sane decisions?

Because I suggest that students should be able to exercise their rights doesn’t mean that doing so at let’s say Stanford University, that immediately there would be 25,000 armed teenagers running around murdering people.

At least give them the choice. None of those murdered at Virginia Tech had a choice. Could guns on the students prevented or limited the chaos? We’ll never know but I think rational thinking people should be able to agree that one way or another, Cho was going to kill people. That day it happened to be with a gun.

Being terrified of your students should they have a gun, you have no sound reasoning to be other than probably what you have been exposed to from all aspects of your own life.

I’m one of those that believe that the majority of humans are good, intelligent people and that Mr. and Mrs. Green down the street will raise the child in the way they think he should go, which might include the use of a gun for protection.

Are you saying that because you or another student are scared, with no basis for being scared, is reason enough to put others at risk by denying them their rights?

The biggest arguments from the gun control people are almost always based on the emotion of fear.

While I also respect anyone else’s opinions on gun issues or any issues for that matter, I would like to see those opinions supported with better evidence than emotion.

Thanks for the input Bryan.
http://deerPhD.com Bryan

Tom,

As an avid reader of your blog, I knew you response this way…and I so appreciate it! I actually teach statistics at Kent State University…I crave facts.

While you are exactly right that my response to your post was based in fear, I believe that my fear is based in sound reason. Here is a blurb from an Wikipedia (which has been demonstrated to be scientifically accurate):

“Homicide rates among 18- to 24-year-olds have declined since 1993, but remain higher than they were prior to the 1980s. In 2005, the 17 through 24 age group remains significantly overrepresented in violent crime statistics, particularly homicides involving firearms. In 2005, 17- through 19-year olds were 4.3% of the overall population of the United States. This same age group accounted for 11.2% of those killed by firearm homicides. This age group also accounted for 10.6% of all homicide offenses. The 20- through 24-year old age group accounted for 7.1% of the population, while accounting for 22.5% of those killed by firearm homicides. The 20 through 24 age group also accounted for 17.7% of all homicide offenses.”

Of course, the problem with “facts” is that they can be spun so many different ways to push an agenda. Kristine recently commented on this issue on her blog. As a result, we could push facts all day and still get nowhere.

Tom, I truly believe you and I are much more similar than we are different. Like you, I believe in supporting the Second Amendment, I’m an avid outdoorsman, and I believe most people are good. I think that far too often issues such as these divide people that are actually on the ‘same side’. It is my hope that our thoughtful and mutually respectful discussion will serve to broaden both of our horizons as we continue to discuss the issue at hand without losing sight of where we both come from and where we both are headed…together.

Thanks again for your very thoughtful and well-researched posts.
Tom Remington

The statistics you provide are interesting BUT…..do you have any that gives us details about college students? Being that is the focus of the discussion.
http://www.skinnymoose.com/ Steve

It’s tough to go from where we are now back to everybody packing heat over night. I think if we could all begin to lean in the other direction, then over time we might be able to learn more about guns.

I have given this a bit of thought and in the current society we live in if anybody is seen carrying a gun then they get a lot of attention. If we immediately enacted a law that allows all students to carry, what would those implications be short term?

We all strive for the long term goal of all being able to legally carry wherever we are. But I think the biggest question is the short term implications and the possibility of some sort of backfire before things level out and reach a point of equilibrium.

This is a good topic and I am glad to see a sane conversation for once.
http://deerPhD.com Bryan

I chose the aforementioned ‘blurb’ because of the age group – that of most college students. There may be reason to believe that college students are distinctly different than the majority of individuals that comprise the statistics, but that reason may largely be that college student access to weapons is limited. Ultimately, the only way we could get cold, hard evidence that speaks to this issue would be to conduct a randomized experiment in which some schools are permitted to have guns on campus and others are not. I don’t think we’ll ever have such evidence because of the extremely high risk involved.

Either way, my mind is stimulated. I will definitely be studying this issue more, and I hope to follow with related posts in the future…
Tom Remington

The University of Utah allows students to have guns on campus and has for some time without any incidents and that’s a sizable campus.

The point in my question about the stats you provided comes because those figures don’t tell where those acts took place and with whom they took place.

Without sounding politically incorrect, it is a far cry from the campuses of universities in this country and the ghettos and slums where the largest percentage of violent crimes take place.

I’m guessing we can agree that we both want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and mentally deranged people. Taking them out of the hands of college students is assuming they are of that mold.

Our efforts should be completely focused on getting violent criminals off the streets and doing all we can to keep guns out of their hands. Removing them from lawful, decent people only further jeopardizes the safety of innocent people.
http://www.idonthaveone.org Philip Peterson

Iâ€™d like to think we can agree that a campus having a law (or smarmy sign saying â€œthis campus is a gun free zoneâ€) is going to have very little effect on someone who goes to school to shoot people. In other words, one who is not dissuaded by laws against murder isnâ€™t going to stop and say â€œI donâ€™t mind a murder one charge, but I certainly donâ€™t want to break this firearm ruleâ€¦â€

So the key point is: Does citizens access to firearms in the US decrease or increase the danger of shooting. I can site several instances of mass shootings being prevented by bystanders who happened to have a gun available to them. However I do not believe Iâ€™ve seen any reports of shootings on college campuses by anyone who had a concealed weapons permit.

My point being that those “kids” who are adult enough to obtain the proper credentials for carrying a concealed weapon are probably adult enough to carry it responsibly. Tragically, there was an effort at Virginia Tech to allow those with concealed weapons to carry them, but it was shot down about a year before the mass killings. Thus the only armed person at the campus is an insane killer.

Bryan also might benefit from reading â€œMore guns less crimeâ€ by John Lott. If nothing else it would help him brush up for any statistics classes he might want to take.

http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493644/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193325280&sr=8-1

Philip
http://www.idonthaveone.org
http://deerPhD.com Bryan

Phillip, nice comment in reply to this good discussion. FYI, I am aware of John Lott. I actually did a post about some of his work:

http://deerphd.com/2007/10/05/second-amendment-series-are-gun-free-zones-really-safe-zones/

Of course, Lott’s work is only one side of the argument, as I state in the aforementioned post.

That being said, the minor concentration of my doctoral degree is in statistics.

“College Students And Guns A Volatile Mix”

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