When A Knave Calls Out Knaves

Here is the reply, when off the phone with WYOMING associates we will refute these out right lies by Robert.

For those of us who actually pay attention to local elk herds, as I do here in NW Wyoming, particularly my own herd, the Wiggins Fork Elk Herd near Dubois, Wyoming in the Upper Wind River Valley, as well as to the annual herd unit reports put out by the Wyoming G&F Department, one thing stands out: you can’t find any indication of negative impacts of wolves on elk, either on raw numbers or cow-calf ratios.

As an elk hunter, I’ve noticed that the main impact of wolves on elk has been changes in distribution, especially during the summer, where the large herds previously seen on the high grassy volcanic plateaus have broken up; elk are using the smaller meadows in the lower elevation forests more, as well as using the steep, heavily forested canyons as movement corridors. I know this because I prefer to use these smaller meadows as campsites; they’re good places to picket my my horses. (I try to stay away from the larger river/stream bottoms). It’s easy to see that elk summer use of these smaller meadows is way up, whereas previously they tended to use the smaller, more difficult to get to meadows in the fall and hunting season. In general, I see this wider distribution/lower density situation as a positive impact of wolves on elk.

Unfortunately, in much of NW Wyoming during winters, we’re seeing the opposite impact in elk harboring on private ranches. I suspect this harboring is more due to hunter pressure than to wolves, although I don’t doubt that in some instances wolves are contributing to the problem.

I will say however, harboring is less of a problem in the Dubois area because between 1941 and 1991 the G&F Department embarked on a strategic land acquisition program to secure extensive winter range throughout the watershed. The East Fork Wildlife Habitat Area north of the Wind River is TWICE the size of the National Elk Refuge, while the Wiggins Fork Elk Herd is half the size of the Jackson Elk Herd, which uses the NER.

This strategic land acquisition program was unfortunately brought to an abrupt halt in the early 90s due to Stockgrower politics and the alleged threat of “government ownership of land.” Well, what is that threat? Over half a million acres of secured big game winter range in Wyoming owned by the G&F Department, not private ranchers. Yep, that’s a threat alright. A threat to the suzerainty of cows on Wyoming’s landscapes.

Be that as it may, it’s also true that declining cow-calf ratios where we’re seeing it in NW Wyoming track along rather nicely along with the long-term drought that began nearly 20 years ago and elk numbers being maintained at or exceeding carrying capacity of various watersheds as demanded by outfitters and hunters. With the Wiggins Fork herd, for example, according to G&F data cow calf ratios began falling well before wolves arrived in the Dubois area in late 1997. It appears that the decline began and has continued primarily from drought’s long-term affect on forage quality rather than numerical pressure on carrying capacity, due to the large amount of secured winter range in the area.

One thing that does stand out in the data is the continuing overpressure of commercial hunting of bulls throughout wolf country–NW Wyoming. Aside from the data, having worked for outfitters myself I know for a fact that outfitters are maxing out their camps with clients and thus maxing out their take of bulls. I’ve referred to this previously as the assembly line of hunters and trophies, with the major trailheads Grand Central Stations of outfitter trucks, trailers, corrals, horses, and mules.

Consequently, trophy elk hunting has become largely unsustainable in NW Wyoming from overhunting, not from wolf predation. It certainly has become virtually impossible to find a good, mature 6 point anywhere in the Dubois area, except for the high country in the Fitzpatrick Wilderness near the Continental Divide, which is quite rugged country and difficult to get to–and I’ve ranged far and wide looking for them. The same is true in the Cody, Wyoming area, albeit worse, where commercial overhunting in the Sunlight Basin/Crandall area has so impacted the bull population that G&F had to change from a general license season to a limited quota license season. The Cody outfitters of course blamed it all on wolves, as in, wolves are killing all the bulls, but even G&F had to admit, in a back handed sort of way, that overhunting was the culprit.

I’ve been pushing here in Dubois for a similar shift from a general to limited quota season, but it hasn’t gotten so bad yet that G&F is willing to face the politics of reducing trophy hunting opportunities here. So, for political reasons, G&F will let things get a lot worse later rather than taking preventative action now.

I think this problem of overhunting of bull elk and blaming elk problems on wolves sets the context of the childish bitching and moaning we’re hearing from David Allen and the RMEF about wolves and alleged misuse of RMEF propaganda about how well elk are doing. It is not well known outside the hunting community just how influential the commercial hunting industry is on the RMEF. Even more influential are wealthy private landowners, many of whom are wanna be ranchers as well as outfitters. These are the landowners RMEF works with on many of its habitat projects.

Both groups view elk and other big game as commercial agricultural crops and private property, a view that is antithetical to the public trust interests of most hunters. I have long watched the Stockgrowers and landowners beat the anti-predator drum to divert hunters’ attention away from the big game privatization and commercialization efforts of landowners and outfitters. Now RMEF has joined the drumbeating.

The RMEF has always been on the outskirts of overt politics. However, in 1997 it got burned by its Wyoming membership when it was discovered that the RMEF was secretly funding the Private Land/Public Wildlife program being pushed by ranchers on the G&F Commission, a program which included marketable hunting licenses as economic “incentives” for landowner cooperation in conservation efforts. Marketable hunting licenses are not popular in Wyoming, to put it delicately. The RMEF got burned pretty badly when the news got out–I’m not the only hunter in Wyoming who canceled his RMEF membership along with threatening to lynch the G&F Commission. That’s one reason the organization has been reluctant to get involved in politics, until recently.

First it was brucellosis politics; in late 2008 the RMEF was preparing to lend its support to bison-style brucellosis management of elk in collaboration with the Montana Stockgrowers, and it secretly scheduled a conference, MC’d by Jack Ward Thomas, in Billings in early 2009 to lay the foundation for such support, until the conference was blown and Glenn Hockett of the Gallatin Wildlife Association and I invited ourselves to prevent any agreement on the proposal.

Now it’s wolves. I doubt it’s so much the membership that’s pushing an anti-wolf agenda at the RMEF than it is the politically and economically powerful landowner/outfitter supporters. It’s all politics, that is, it’s all about money.

I’m long past the point where I’ll trust the RMEF with my membership dollars because the organizaton has been more than happy over the last 15 years to sell out the public trust for donor dollars.

RH

We’ll be getting other opinions from Dubois Wyoming shortly concerning the Wiggins Fork Elk herd, or herds.. I have four friends living right in and around Dubois who have lived there 30 or more years, and some have lived their 50 or more years, and they disagree with Robert Hoskins.

As well, later in the week Scott Rockholme and myself will drive to Dubois Wyoming to video interview folks who know that country quite well.. I personally spent quite a bit of time in the Wiggins Fork country, but that has been awhile.. Several years, But I had contact every year with friends elk hunting and Big Horn Sheep Hunting, and the reports I heard from them during the last ten years, do not support Hoskins.

Once Scott has the interviews he will post them on youtube..

The beautiful thing about today’s technology, is the vast corners of knowledge available. Back in the early 1990’s when the illegally introduced Canadian Grey Wolf was shoved down our throat’s, information wasn’t readily available, and they were able to pull the proverbial wool over our eye’s.

Now, here we are in the middle of the information nirvana, and still people try to spread their BS stories of how they are hunters, and the wolf has it’s place amongst us. I am here to tell you, I am living the hell, and seeing the slaughter of our elk, moose, and deer. I do not care what region you live in the Rockie Mountain States, either you have been effected by wolves, or you will be effected.

My new weapon of choice is my new Sony FX7 High def camera, and my prey is now these lying environmental terrorist’s. The wolf cult will quietly slither back into their sleazy pot smoking dungeons after I am through showing the ecological disaster they have caused.

Stay tuned my friend’s, we are just beginning to get the steam roller going!

Greg
Do you ever run into shaggy manes over there? I was lucky and came upon about 5 pounds of them this week. Creamed on toast and scrambled with eggs and the rest into the freezer for later. You can’t find those in any market!

Greg
Shaggy manes are one of the fool proof four mushrooms. Check them out in pictures on Google. They auto digest from the bottom up so the gills turn into an inky mass – thus you can never eat them when they are too old – they are not appealing at that stage. This is the first mushroom my mother taught me to indentify when I was 4 years old in Moscow.

The cap is very soft, the stype adds a bit of crunch if you slice it up below the annulus. Usuallly they are a fall crop. It must have been the unordinaryy moist spring that caused this recent flush.

I will go the “Mile” , it is one thing to throw accusations and inaccuracies around but it is quite another to stand up and Defend your Beliefs with video and wittnesses.
Ralph Maughan and his tribe of NonBelievers is a Liberal nest of WildLife Non-Experts who hold to the misguided notion that if you tell a lie long enough it will become fact. A WildLife Circle Jerk where the Elk keep dieing and they keep reassuring each other that they shouldn’t believe what they are seeing with their own eye’s.
And so it is that I am asking R. Hoskins for an Interview when we get to Dubois. So that we can film his delusion for all you Non-Believers to either refute or Circle up with Bob. Now I’m not a Prophet but I’ll just bet Bob doesn’t have the Courage of his convictions. But I am asking all the same,we have your phone number and if we don’t hear from you we will be calling, just in case you missed this comment and invitation. You might want to call Merideth to see if it’s OK.
My # 307-332-8208 “Put Your Wolf where your Mouth is So We can Fim it”.

Greg Farber et al.

Prove me wrong; data from Wyoming G&F back me up.

Also, any further assertion from anyone that I am lying I will consider libel. Be forewarned.

Robert Hoskins

P. S. By the way, the reason Type 6 cow elk licenses were high from 1998-2003 in the Dubois, WY area–1500 additional licenses over five years, not each year as implied above–is that G&F, upon the demand of the Diamond G Cattle Ranch west of Dubois, instituted an intense reduction program on the “Dunoir” segment of the Wiggins Fork Elk Herd which summers on the Buffalo Plateau in the Teton Wilderness and winters on/around Spring Mountain north of Dubois. The herd segment passes through the Dunoir Valley to and from summer and winter ranges, and mostly calves in the Dunoir itself.

The complaint from the Diamond G was that there were “too many elk in the Dunoir” eating forage “reserved” for cattle. This is the typical livestock industry complaint about elk in Wyoming, not to mention the West, something hunters seem to ignore where wolves and bears are concerned. Indeed, the main reason elk herds in Wyoming aren’t bigger than they are is that landowners, mostly ranchers, are always complaining about too many elk, or deer, or pronghorn, and demand–and get–herd reduction programs from G&F year after year after year. The focus of the reduction programs is of course on cows and does. Has no one ever heard of or participated in a late season depredation hunt?

Be that as it may, once the Dunoir segment had been reduced to objective, G&F stopped issuing the extra licenses in 2003, which is why significantly fewer hunters are coming to the Dubois area and why fewer elk are being processed at Wind River Meats, among other impacts to hotels, outfitters, etc. In short, the herd reduction program was an economic windfall for Dubois for five years, but as we all should know, all good things must pass.

That the G&F herd reduction program took place is an undeniable fact, although locals have conveniently forgotten it in order to claim that wolves and bears are killing all the elk (and moose), a claim that has no basis in fact.

You might want to interview G&F about this when you do your film so that at least you’ll have some facts right.

Robert,

If you pass on disinformation due to your believing in the source of that information you then become a spreader of disinformation yourself. I.D.F.G. has lost all credibility, with those of us seeking the facts here in Idaho. I would highly question the integrity of Wyoming game and fish if I were living in Wyoming. Libel is a two way street, you frequent a blog site which libels those of us who disagree with your ” opinions ” quite often, as ” haters “, and misinformed uneducated right wing threats to the environment, etc. etc, all the while allowing people like yourself the pleasure of a free ranging opinion which concerns us all, at the same time blocking us from participation, or even slandering us that do so, as the personal attacks against Bob Fanning Speak volumes as to the character of that site. Quite frankly I am sick of it. We shall interview all who are willing, let the chips fall where they may.. Put up or shut up, your phony threats of a suit intimidate no one, run to your attorney like a damn slinking pup then…

Jim,

It is the mentality that he who has the most cash is right in America and they’ll use it to bulldoze over the dissenting arguments by forcing them into intimidated silence. Quite often these arrogant rascals among us under estimate their foe. I’ve been a mechanical and building contractor for twenty years, attorneys frighten me about as much as a grasshopper does.. Whoopee.. What a way to introduce oneself, with threats of a suit… Shut the fuck up and bring it.

Sure, I’ll consent to be interviewed. But you gotta understand two things:

1) I’m not one of those ignorant protesters you guys put on YouTube. I know what I’m talking about. For example, in this clip, http://www.youtube.com/user/Rockholm66#p/u/20/CIpfpHXzIBE, I hear Scott refer to reintroduced Yellowstone and Idaho wolves as “non-native, experimental.” What? There is no such language in the ESA. Actually, Yellowstone and Idaho wolves were introduced under section 10j of the ESA as “experimental, non-essential” populations. You can read section 10 of the ESA here: http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/laws/esa_section10.pdf.

2) As I said, if the product is libelous and/or defamatory, I will sue. Your decision.

RH

So being an old military man you are familiar with intimidation. You can run up and down main street in Dubois and every time you do you have to run past the Cold Storage Plant ! Why would he be going out of business if things are as good as you claim. 1,500 late Cow permits reduced to 150 is not an inaccurate statement at all. You can dance around that all day but that reduction reflects alot of light on the success or lack of success that Hunters are having in Area 67.
I was born and raised in Wyoming, I know how good it was befor they pushed this Wolf down our throats. I have worked on some of the Biggest Ranches in Wyoming. I have ridden with Legends and was taught by the best, I ride a “Doug Johnson Saddle made for me by Doug Johnson – who was my nephew. Sometimes it’s just good to have a “Pissin’ Contest” don’t ya think ! I feel better – I hope I didn’t make you feel like a Tourist .

Robert,

I believe in the Ten Commandments of the Bible, Freedom, the Constitution, The Declaration of Independence, and the Founders intents via the original 13 Amendments, ending with the real 13th A. The Titles and Nobility Clause. Call it my religion if you will, as you know it is my right to believe in them. I loathe Communism and Nazism with all my heart. If you think that is propaganda fine for you, many of my family members served in our wars, 1776, 1812, 1861, both sides, and WWI- WWII- Korea- And Vietnam.

Many of my so-called propaganda findings are via Congressional Globes, Annals, and Records of Congress, over a two hundred year collection in my studies. I certainly deserve to be cut down and bad mouthed by you obviously. Throughout America those beliefs are being destroyed in my opinion via Maurice and Hanna Strongs design of the final text of agreements negotiated by governments at the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) 3-14 June 1992, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

George H.W. Bush our now infamous signatory of this deal, signed onto this deal at that time, and later Bill Clinton’s, in my opinion is the most insidious executive orders was EO 12986, which was issued on January 9, 1996, implementing this agenda, which today has many other identifying titles used such as, Sustainable Development, Growth Management, Comprehensive planning, Abundance Ecology, Smart Growth, Shortage Ecology, which ties directly into the ESA. This information has been being installed into our nations body politic since Clinton ordered it, it does not end there either, they installed into the compulsory curriculum of our educational system, as high as the University Level..

The several nice names were invented so as not alarm the American people, because those politicians bringing this about did not wish for opposition to it. I OPPOSE IT. It has been my understanding We the People of these United States are to vote on things of this magnitude. We did not do so.. this is subversion of the America peoples Rights, unethical, UnConstitutional, and Anti Declaration of Independence. Thus as far as state claims go concerning your sources, I hold those information’s highly suspect and questionable at best, I lend them no credibility what so ever.. I believe you swore and oath of allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America to protect and defend her from foreign and domestic enemy’s..

I do not believe in this Soviet Model being used to ruin my Country. The ESA is based on international treaties and is rooted in the Precautionary Principle, which abandons the legal standard that presumes innocence. Since the ESA puts the government in control of plants, the ideals of private property are destroyed, natural resource shortages arise, and natural calamities, such as devastating forest fires increase, etc. etc.. The Earth Summit Agenda 21- The United Nations Programme of Action from Rio–ISBN-92-1-1000509-4 This is a U.N Publication.. So you can call it propaganda, conspiracy theories, you can claim I don’t know what I am talking about, you can deny this, BUT I CALL IT THE TRUTH. Any body with half a brain can figure this all out.. Either you approve it, are unaware of it, or disapprove of it.. Of course if you know about it you are considered to be nuts… Just ask Jeremy Bruskotter, mental giant extraordinaire…

Greg
This may be why you are not welcome at RM’s site. You bring up all sorts of topics that have nothing to do with wildlife. Tirades about hidden agendas, chem trails, conspiracies, rapid cooling of granite underground, evolution has not occured – – You lecture endlessly regarding your beliefs and most don’t want to read about it. It is usually not pertinent to the topic of discussion.

You said it, not me: Greg is a propagandist and a nut job..

The topic of Agenda 21, etc. etc. has every thing to do with the ESA and the New Age Modern environmentalist movement.. That is a fact.. The failure is yours, not mine. The Congressional documents, the Executive Orders, The Earth Summit book from the U.N., and the U.N. Charter prove it is a reality. You seem to always over look those key points.. Many Ph.D.s support the truths of the evidence shared.. Lee, You are a cop out and denier of reality. Wanting the evidence to be false, propaganda, and off topic is wishful thinking on your part at best.. I suggest you refute it… Good luck doing that.

Greg, keep puttin it out there. No one else realizes it yet – from LACK of reading it. ….and people wonder why things seem so screwie. It wouldn’t if they did their homework and quit denying it, it would help stop the corruption.

RH, you must realize this is much bigger than you and I. I have gathered more than 6000 members, and amassed more than a half million dollars in a short 5 months. By the time you read this, I will be growing at a rate DOW cannot keep up with. You and your DOW friend’s are going to reap the rewards of your destruction of our wildlife. Get ready ding bat, you are about to learn a very valuable lesson.

This is pretty comical, while I was in Jackson Hole last month I asked around about this keyboard commando tough guy Bob Jackson, hoping to get some input on his infamous rough housing and bullying ways.. I rode the same country he did, 1975-1978, never ran into no law dog wanting to search my bedroll or saddle bags, or pack boxes.. Not once.. And none of the old timer Wyoming fellers I talked to in Jackson had heard of Bob.. If Bob actually treated people like he claims, and talked shit to them while in the forest like he does on this very protected blog site I really have to wonder how he managed not to get his ass kicked by real men, in between these so called girls or girly men he claims to have made bawl like spoiled brats stealing bubble gum from his sister. If he really did bust a few poachers in his day, I commend him, Guess what, so have I.. I suppose it is a good thing they all hang at a controlled intellectual web site.. No opposing wilting wimps like Farber and Rockholme allowed to straddle the pages of priest Maughan and defend our integrity against this group of knit wits.. This Jackson feller amuses me.. And these people claim they want to compromise with their opposition.. By claiming any other perspectives other than theirs are idiotic, lacking in integrity, and not worth their time.. God damn man, I guess I should be impressed.. Every one is a poacher according to Bob Jackson.. Bob reminds of the Hangs around the fort Indians as described by Russell Means in his book, Where White Men Fear to Tread…. This is some deep shit below now.. Don’t get none on ya. Notice what he says about the folks who refused his offers of illegal unwarranted searches of their camps or pack strings.. Bob you convinced me of one thing, you are poser and a joke.

bob jackson Says:
April 24, 2010 at 6:28 AM

Thanks for posting the vid, Robert.

This is exactly the same anger one could count on any day I came near outfitters and guides during elk hunting season in the Thorofare…only thing was it was the same antisocial behavior before the wolves. It also occurred somewhat during the summer by these same hoodlams.

Ride into camp for inspection and some of these clowns would throw their plates and food on the ground and get up and walk away…This in front of guests. The young rangers would get so intimidated they would not even try to inspect while certain outfitters were in these campsites. They would make an on trail limited check…so they could put down they had checked this outfitter.

It was the same with Forest Service wilderness guards…only worse. If they saw the booze they would get back on their horses and ride away.

The guy in the vid may seem overpowering but I tell you, you go at these guys with inner strength and they wilt away. You catch guys like this poaching and you break them down, right there on the spot, break em down and they start crying and bawling. Then pull out your forest service notepad from your shirt pocket and tell them to write in their own words what they did. The tears were on a number of these confessions, I tell you that.

Hell, this guy isn’t even in nature. His “23 miles back in” is on a snowmobile road. It is a logging road and logging roads have beer cans, toilet paper and rags used to crap right next to the road….and ratty girls underwear and condoms strewn all over.

Ya this guy is quite the tough guy. I say don’t be fearful of this type. Offense is the best defense on these guys. What I do hate are these types taking their social misfit anger out on the wildlife. As I said at the first in this post, it is not about wolves. This behavior happened long before the wolves came back.

Actually guys like these were a lot easier to catch and break down than the professional poacher. The pro is cold and calculating. Those are the guys I really had to be prepared for before coming in on them.

Greg is right we are pro wildlife management however since the wolf we are having a hard time doing so as far as elk, deer and moose are concerned thanks to their rapid loss of numbers because of the wolf.

Hey look, Wyoming is embroiled in a conspiracy just like idaho is, the Ranching Community control the state legislative decisions, obviously over riding the wishes of the voting public, imagine that. More Conspiracy, I love it.. Becareful, some where some one will call you a kook Robert..

Robert Hoskins Says:
April 24, 2010 at 8:10 AM

Jon

Thanks. I had forgotten I’d written this. Remarkably restrained, isn’t it, considering the vulgarity of the topic. I recall that I received no reply from Sen. Barrasso. Figures; he’s become the most bombastic Mr NO of Wyoming’s Congressional Delegation. His newsletters mostly report TV appearances on Fox News. His most recently introduced bill is to prohibit federal agencies writing NEPA documents from considering climate change. He’s doing a fine job for Wyoming.

The point is that the livestock and outfitting industries have poisoned their own wells but can’t or won’t accept it. I don’t care much for the livestock industry since it’s been a self-appointed arrogant oligarchy rooted in big money from the very beginning but outfitting began at the bottom, as common ranchers and cowboys turned to guiding hunters during the fall to supplement meager incomes. These guys knew their country backwards and forwards and up and down, while the Stockgrowers knew only the ins and outs of the State Legislature and Congress. There is a difference.

At one time, at least in western Wyoming, outfitters and guides along with sportsmen made up the local hunting clubs that worked the nuts and bolts of what we now think of as traditional conservation. As I’ve mentioned above, it was local Dubois outfitters along with (gasp!) the Sierra Club that pushed the creation of the Washakie Wilderness in 1973, something for which I am eternally grateful.

Times have changed. It’s a shame that outfitting has lost the old conservation ethic, and unfortunately there’s no chance it will adopt the new one in which predators have a natural and necessary place. Having joined the irrational right, and in some cases the really far irrational right, it’s a lost cause.

RH

They can’t have us defending ourselves against their lying bullshit personal attacks of our characters.. Cowards hiding behind the cloak of over protective moderation..

On the one hand these people squeal about a conspiracy by the ranching community having a dominating influence upon our state legislative bodies, yet they scoff at the infiltration of a U.N. Agenda being implemented into all of these same agencies, which is a 100% truth..

If the state scientists using the implementation of those programs I point to happen to provide information which supports these peoples beliefs their all over it supporting it, if it contradicts them they call it bogus science influenced by money or ranching connections..

Good grief just research abundance ecology, and shortage ecology.. The concept is to make it so humans have no reason to use the lands, public and private..

I will be meeting with many organizations this month. I will film and interview the folk’s who have skin in the game as well. As I did in Jackson, I will give anyone willing, a chance to air their laundry. In most cases, the lunatic wolf lover will almost alway’s stimulate your urge to wipe your feet on them. I have never in my entire life sought to exchange with the vile human beings known as wolf supporters. I have many video’s, and interviews of these kook’s, and it was all I could do to keep from vomiting when talking to them. They are so used to the one sided media showing the 3 second clip of them, they usually seek me out to tell their story, as delusional as it is. If I choose to use their comment’s in one of my video’s, it is always in their word’s not mine. So you see, the wolf lover only want’s to spew their nonsense, and ignore the fact’s. I choose to use the fact’s to bring out their agenda. The wolf lover is easy. They all read the same blog’s, moderate them, and regurgitate the same lines time after time. Wikipedia is usually where they get their information.

This blog is one of the finest out there, and Tom does a great job communicating, and distributing fact’s. I come here regularly to read intellectual topic’s, and not the rhetoric of the loony wolf cult. Here we are, back at square one with the fruit cakes. They have their own moderated melting pot’s, and they spill over into the fact based blog, and cannot take it.

Look for the new video’s coming soon. I have four ready to go, and will be filming daily. If you wish to be interviewed, please let me know. I would be happy to show the world your word’s, as nutty as they are.

As far as the comment about me being sued, all I can say is you better be ready to defend yourself. I too have many informative video’s ready for such an attempt to stop my organization. It is amazing how many video’s I have amassed in my library. People who never thought their agenda would be exposed, are begging me to refrain from producing them. In an age of the video equipped cel phone, everyone with a devious agenda like the wolf cult will be very surprised when their agenda leaks out. Timing is everything.

Have a nice day!

TLM
Where is “here” that your are reading about? WY, iD, and MT covers a lot of territory.

If you read early accounts of bounties paid for wolves killed in Montana most of them were from the eastern part of the state; ditto for Wyoming – not the Northern Rockies. Makes sense before the bison, elk, antelope etc were killed to make way for non-native cattle.

Apparently most of the mountainous country now harboring elk were devoid of the critters prior to the arrival of “white man”

Bob Jackson
Yellowstone backcountry ranger ACTION JACKSON describes sighting sasquatch., other incidents
http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=12302

” On December 27, Bob Jackson, a seasonal Park Ranger who has patrolled Yellowstone’s back country for the past 24 years, won his “whistleblower” claim against the National Park Service. US law protects whistleblowers who report health and safety problems or rules violations by their Superiors or counterparts. So These people Like Action Jackson can point to governmental corruption, rules violations, etc. etc. No problem, but when other do it, those same guys are quick to call us nuts.. Bob was punished for speaking the truth, well I know how it feels to..

Action says he saw a Big Foot in YNP… Maybe so.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/larry-battson/2009/12/18/larry-battsons-wild-world

Clinton Falls Indiana

I just finished a lengthy conversation with Bob Fanning. When we are through with the criminals at the USFWS, we will start looking into Mr. Jacksons illegal searches of innocent Americans. Will Action Jackson tell the stories of violating the American Citizens Constitutional Rights?

I doubt it very much. If Mr. universe so much as hiccups, I will record it, and publish it for everyone to see. Now we will see who pisses their pants.

Here is an article praising this federal ” Stud ” loud mouth know it all, this is a real American man dontcha ya know…

http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/former_controversial_yellowstone_ranger_becomes_bison_rancher/C38/L38/

Nice work finding the self describing failure on that site Greg. Here is what i wrote there.

As far as I can tell, this is the epitome of what is wrong with our Country today. Here we are, reading a self described heavy handed thug. The very people today who despise this behavior from law enforcement are here praising this transplant for violating the Constitutional right’s of hunters. In the picture above, the John Wayne wanna be, stand’s there as if he is a tough guy holding his lever action. If this meat head ever showed his face in my elk camp, acting like a jack ass, he would have to drag his worthless ass back to his pickup. I am looking forward to seeing Mr. Action Jackson in Dubois this week. All he will see, is me and my camera filming real Americans, with real issues. I will never give this disgrace one minute of my time. It’s people like him that ruined that great area.

I think we are off topic a bit. Reflecting on the previous comment’s made by people who do not have a clue, I realize they are nothing to me. You see, it’s the game being played, time after time. I have never hunted that part of the country, but I have hunted the Northern side of “The Park”.

What is relevant now, is the wolf cult is responsible for destroying an entire region of the Country, The same people responsible for the Spotted Owl, have used the Illegally introduced Canadian Grey Wolf as a tool to remove man (us) from the biological circle. As with the botched attempts to preserve a fictitious endangered species (spotted owl), they simultaneously destroyed vast areas of land through the elimination of logging. The Non Native wolf is their tool to destroy hundreds of thousands of beautiful animals, and they are doing it under the auspice of the ESA. Through the wolf cult’s effort’s, they will be responsible for the soon to be listed elk, and moose.

In no uncertain terms, when the dust settles, we will have our justice. I just hope it doesn’t happen too late.

The ” public good ” is and opinion.

Tea party anyone ? One lump or two ?

” Having spent much of my life as a professional soldier–Army–I came up with a phrase that explained much of the behavior of my fellow officers: “The Four C’s, or career, capitulation, cover-up, and cowardice.”

The fact is, if you really believed in Duty, Honor, Country, you were in trouble. The pressures to survive in the bureaucratic morass almost always insured that officers ignored their Duty, compromised their Honor, and put the needs of the organization above that of the Country. Very few principled officers survive to retirement (I didn’t), and to see it in the higher ranks is almost unheard of. As in any organization, it isn’t the cream that rises to the top; it’s the sour milk. It was go along to get along to climb the career ladder. That helps to explain many military disasters, such as the ones we’re seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, and why one author could entitle his book The Psychology of Military Incompetence without anyone being shocked by it.

The same moral failings operate in the civilian world, except that usually, attendance to principle gets you fired and delegated to poverty, rather than killed. But the motives are the same. I see the same moral failings operating in the National Park Service and all the other agencies as they capitulate to the livestock industry and abuse bison and elk, and hand wolves and grizzly bears over to the states, even when a child could see the states are determined to bring these species under control and focus their “management” on the demands of private, commercial interests rather than the public interest.

To call superindentants, directors, division chiefs, etc., leaders, is a mockery of what leadership truly is. ” —-Robert Hoskins

Why are my comments not showing up ?

Tbone, what you constitute as reality, is compromise. Politicians have been piddling away our rights long enough. It is time to stand and fight. If you won’t or don’t fight, you are on the BOHICA list. That’s “bend over here it comes again”. If you won’t fight for the animals we have fought for and protected over the years, you are not a hunter in spirit, you are compromising away the rights we as hunters have fought for for the last 90 years. That’s comparative to voting for socialism and it’s equivalent, as the modern good for nothing but dope and your welfare check generation has frittered away not only our principles, but our freedoms….
Go vote for Obama and his dominion, they think like your thoughts….Didn’t you vote for him? I’d be surprised to hear you think otherwise.

You’re going to start seeing a tea party forming for the rights of people who don’t want wolves in their backyard, and unless you get off the fence, you’re no more use than the politicians who have hamstrung this country with laws dictated by the rich and powerful and who are as corrupt as any bribe and as responsible as anyone who has the money to buy them…

The “art” of dealing with these laws is to use the power of the vote. That is the only power we have and it is being compromised by complacency and compromise. People have had enough of the “intellectuals” dictates, and they are regaining their power by peaceable assembly and the voting booth. And if you truly care enough for your rights as a hunter and bearer of arms, you will stand with them and not shirk your heritage.

Sure, come over here and lecture us on blog etiquette, lets have a look at the sweet talking action Bob Jackson going off on I.D.F.G. Director Mark Gamblin who has not replied there for months.. Nothing Idaho does pleases these people unless it is the very in question elk herd counts which support their baloney.. Elk herd number counts which remain unproven I might add..

http://wolves.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/skunks-badgers-enlisted-to-control-idaho-pelicans/#comment-106587

Jes, Obama your kidding right, when I talk about taking the issue out of the feds hands, who’s hand would that be, oh that’s right, Obama appointee’s. And put it in control of, for example the hands of the state, for instance the conservative state of Idaho who’s govenor wanted to buy the first wolf tag. As far as the etiquette comment, I suggested using a different strategy, that would encourage support not alienate it, in order for this issue and others down the road we need all the support we can get, anyone noticed that the numbers of true hunters is shrinking every year. Comparing me to Jackson (no comment). As for Mark I have known Mark and several others for years, and I see the beating they take from folks. Again Mark works for the STATE, F&G. Again the state is where the control needs to be and what have I been advocating. As for coming over to this side, I’ve always been pro elk/deer etc. and always will, I’m afraid of what…. not much except not having the opportunity to take my grandsons hunting.

ASK IDAHO IF THEY WISH NOW THEY HAD FOLLOWED WYOMING…YES ! ASK MONTANA IF THEY WISH THEY HAD STOOD WITH WYOMING ….YES ! WYOMING HAS THE BEST WOLF CONTOL OUTSIDE YELLOWSTONE PARK !! WE ARE TRYING TO GIVE ALL OF OUR NEIGHBORS A LESSON IN” BALLS” !!! WOLVES ARE ILLEGAL IN WYOMING AND AGAINST THE LAW IN FREMONT, COUNTY. THAT IS THE WAY IT’S BEEN SINCE THIS STARTED AND WE HAVEN’T CHANGED.

Someone suggested that all the trouble comes back to Wyoming……truth be known it is time to grow a pair and “JOIN-UP” !! What is being done to our Wildlife and Health by this Non-Native Wolf is criminal . All you have to do is join Wyoming’s Law Suit and make them GodDamned Wolves Illegal just like we have done, quit “Pussy Foot’in Around” hoping someone will save you….you are going to have to save yourselves. Wyoming understood that from the start….it’s a Cowboy Thing !!!

I actually like Wyoming’s stand concerning the issue, after all Wyoming already has experienced getting trodden on by the feds via the grizzly and their usurpation of that corner of Wyoming which has all those out houses, Twinkie – coffee and gift stands, and the paved roads, sorta cool if you like driving your auto through wilderness.. This last hunt did not gain us any ground, the over eating of elk by canines will not slow up.. The Regs, and heavy handed control of this predator by the agencies involved are and admittance their losing the elk.. My wilderness and national forest travels including many years watching elk up close and personal, with the wolves in the picture do not coincide with scientific theories which arm chair quarter backs living in city’s believe in, Pocatello is a long ways from the problem..So is Ohio State University.

I see my posts, with regards to the Bob Jackson/ and Obama comments haven’t made it here.

Todd as an Idahoan, who had a legal wolf hunting season last year and called in my first wolf in less than 40 seconds, and it was among the 188 wolves legally harvested I’m not sure exactly who you surveyed. But 188 x 23 = 4324 elk saved.
Montana 78 x 23 = 1794
Take those numbers multiply them by 20% = average wolf population increase=
How many wolves were killed legally by hunters in Wy. 00000 it looks to me like we already have a pair and have been using them. Greg,I haven’t been everywhere, why because I live in Idaho, no where else I’d rather be, so if you would like to compare miles put in on the ground I’m game. And I’m not talking ATV.. I hunt bone, and I have no problem tossing an unused tag, hats off when I’ve been out done by the biggest. Maybe we ought to sit down and you folks can tell me and a couple others who it is that is giving you all the Idaho intel, on the envy of Wy, I sure as heck haven’y heard, in fact it’s just the opposite. After 45+ years of hunting, fawn & calf collaring/ sagehen collaring, guzzler/ fence building, winter feeding and donations, I’m not sure I’m comfortable with you representing me.

Forgot to add Rockholm, even though we meet on your turf, don’t expect me to bring a bunch of toughs and or lawyers, all you get is me. If you’ll listen, I’ll be more than happy to listen to you, and I’ll buy. This issue is just that important.

T Bone,

The only reality here, and you fail to address it every time. The USFWS is a criminal enterprise, and have colluded with the iDF&G to introduce a non native Canadian Grey wolf. The fraud you so easily dismiss, and the criminal and corrupt accounting of the fact’s is amazing. If the IDF&G were a financial institution they would be in jail right now.

Now, let me get this straight. Is it the desire of the Maughn crowd to be filmed? Why is it all of you guy’s have this appetite to be interviewed? I am pretty sure I have stated the criteria for even entertaining such a interview. You must be so vein you cannot see the bigger picture. Do you have something to add the others before you didn’t? In what way will your argument change the debate? Have you lost everything, and been driven out of business? Are you a federal or state employee that is responsible for this, either past or present?

I would like you to read what I have written, and understand it’s not about you T Bone. You wish to follow the same road that will lead to the destruction of our ungulate population. Like the folks you associate with, you are the problem, not the solution. This is a non native Canadian Grey Wolf, and it has been illegally introduced to our ecosystem. If your claim is you are an animal activist, then get busy and start saving “our” wildlife!

I love the off handed way T-Bone claimed prior knowledge of Wrong Doing by the Game Agencies and USFWS and did nothing………Rockholm called it. T-Bone when you have knowledge of such a Gross violation of the LAW and choose to remain silent you are part of the conspiracey, which explains your presance here and your message of compromise and why you will never be in any of Rockholms vids. He does not interview ‘UNINDITED CO-CONSPIRATORS” !!

What ever you do T bone, don’t try and correct all of this misinformation and stupid assertions of their reality, they’ll cry to Ralph and block you..This site should be named horse shit news..Even though Ertz is being sarcastic it is amazing how his own sarcasm fits him to a T.. This crap about wolves not over killing elk is hilarious, I’ve watched em do it.. These fools allow that wolves are reasonable predators. Sure they are. Everybody distorts the facts about science, wolves, other people, etc. etc. at this wild lies blog site.. To funny, warning, if you read the replies to this article don’t have any thing in your mouth, it will be on your screen and keyboard.
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/wolves-make-few-unnecessary-elk-kills-study-says/#comment-106629

Amazing isn’t it ? I was raised in the Boise National Forest, still frequent the property there, and live at the edge of the Sawtooth National Forest unit 48, I have and cow elk down one mile from me, three wolves eating on it.. Maughan lives in Pocatello, on the out skirts of it, and he knows more than we do according to him concerning what happens right outside our doors here.. He operates the most biased one sided over protected moderated blog on these environmental issues..That action itself proves a lack of integrity.. Not to mention WWPs agenda to run ranchers off of public lands, and they lie, cheat and steal to getter done.. All Agenda 21..

Since our goal in the end is the same, I will try to clear up a few things in a civil tone.
1. Not sure where “interview” came from, there is no interview, this is a discussion between 2 adults who interpret things differently, but the same goals. And blog iterpretations can be misunderstood.
2. Checked my math 188×23 still = 4324 and 78 x 23 = 1794 and 0x0=0
I am older so should I be using some type of new math.
3. Panhandle elk the same as SE Idaho are the both considered Idaho elk, and the $$ and efforts put in by sportsman at either end of the state is to benefit all elk.
4. I don’t hunt elk in unit 1, I hunt mule deer, I archery hunted elk in the LoLo until this year. The reason I hunt mule deer in North idaho isn’t because of their abundance, it’s because I can hike, and glass, into country you can’t get a 4 wheeler in. Unlike many parts of the southern end of the state where the access is much easier and seasons are short and crowded.
5. The Conley days are over, time to move on and manage the issues.
6. The F&G folks including commissioners we work with are very supportive, they will come to after hours meetings, on there own time listen to our concerns give us updates and info we might not otherwise have.
7. I am not sure where you come up with the “correct all the misunderstandings”. comment
8. Rockholm, I’m not going to play the puff out the chest game on who’s dad can beat up who’s. I live in Idaho so I can hunt Idaho, for the last 50 yrs. I start glassing Aug. 20, I finish hunting Feb. 15th. then May it’s spring bear time, and because of the snow pack in N. Id. and it’s short, no bait season, the chances I can get to where I can slip an arrow into a boar I’ve watched for several years the odds are slightly better.

Greg, all my posts go into spam and i have to ask Tom to pull them out and post them. for his sake, I am going to limit my responses until the problem is corrected. many of the issues you talk about are past history, and we’re stuck in the backdraft. This wolf issue is political, we need to move forward on it and make sure we prevent what happened from happening again. I don’t think my response to jes got thru, he accused me of being an Obama supporter, think about my posts, the wolf issue needs to be managed at the state level and last I looked, Id.Mt.Wy. are all still majority red states, not so with the current federal administration that is going to resume control if Molloy rules to relist. let’s concentrate our efforts into taking control at a state level, where our votes count for something, and continue to investigate what happened to keep from letting it happen again. And to do that we need every supporter we can muster. I’m not bashing WY. I am asking for them to rethink their position, Let’s get and keep the issues in our local govermants/agencies hands, i know their not perfect but there better than the alternatives. Someone compared this to terrorizm and afghanastan. Let me make another sorta of similar comparison. Revelutionary war kind of. Pro wolf dresses in red uniforms and march out in a line and fire their muskets, at a group of anti wolf soldiers wearing blue standing in a line firing the same muskets back. it goes on and on, nothing much changes. Then one side decides hey, let’s put on our buckskins, sneak thru the trees adding in a few snipers and make a significant change in the way this battle is fought. My suggestion all along has been let’s put on the buckskins and take a smater approach at fighting the battle first. And minimize loss to deserters. I am not advocating forget and forgive what I am saying is we need to win the battle and then go after and change what caused the war.

USFWS.

Todd, instead of the shots, why don’t you help me with my math. My reasoning is that each wolf kills about 23 elk, trying to figure in calf mortality as well. Wolves are going to eat ,so if you’ve had a chance to hunt wolves and I suspect you have you know that once the prey is diminished in one area they are going to move and they can cover alot of ground FAST, there are no man made boundry’s. They will then depending on wolf density either take over another area or move to the area with the most prey availbe and least resitance. Once the prey has diminished, and the pack isn’t able to move they start reducing litter sizes, or become weakened and some die off. This is a slow process as shown in YNP. With control and hunting I am sure you know that the idaho wolf count is about the same or slightly reduced from last year. Do you have the numbers from Wy. that show the numbers from 2008 vs 2009?

jim, any idea what the 2008 count was, they say growth rate runs at about 20%. but doing “my” math on the numbers since the reintro it pans out way above 20% especially in Idaho, With elk reduction numbers Todd talks about, the litter sizes should be big. I know there was a little shift in YNP and some mange issues, but still there should a fairly good increase. Also, does anyone know if the reference to N elk herd by Todd was for a herd in Wy. Id. or Mt.

Tom
I try to supply reliable facts and Cat Urbigkit is does not represents my view. Show me where I have made up numbers that I could not substantiate.

T-bone
Thanks for trying to interject some reason into this dialog.

If you take the 10,000 Elk killed by Wolves from th N Yellowstone Herd ,beween 2000-2003 and the 2,750 killed from the same herd between 2003-2005 . You get a very clear picture of how many Wolves there really are.
85 Wolves killed 10,000 Elk in 3 yrs which means they had to consume 86 lbs a day.
The same 85 wolves killed 2750 Elk between 2003-2005. I figured these Elk at 1000 lbs because of the stated error in the EIS. It was discovered the Wolves do in fact kill Bull Elk and do it at a rate eaqual to the Killing of Calves.
This amount came to 44.31 lbs per day per Wolf over that 2 yr period. I added 86 +44.31= 130.31 divided by 5 yrs = 26 lbs a day average.

I now take 26lbs a day time Lee’s 124 Wolves and we get 3224 lbs a day average times 365 =1,176,760 lbs a year times 5 yrs = 5,883,800 lbs. I divide this by the weight of a cow elk 800 lbs and that = 7,355 Elk Killed during that 5 yr period of time.

Now we know for an absolute fact based on USFWS AND G& F numbers that there were 12,750 Elk killed off by Wolvesfrom the N Herd between 2000-2005. I did the math leaving out Calf Elk and using Lee’s 124 Wolves .

So Lee you might want to triple the amount of Wolves that Cat say’s there are because there are a Hell of alot more than only doubling the 124 that they say are in Yellowstone. As it stands today there are 6,000 Elk in Yellowstone where once was 30+ thousand that is 24,000 Elk gone and that does not include the Calves that have been slaughtered.

Tom
I doubt that many of the other respondents here have read the article in the Juneau Empire by Alex Simon regarding knaves. This whole dialog started after my comment, the first, asking you, as an interested observer of wildlife across the country, your opinion regarding a comment by Robert Hoskins, a resident of Wyoming.

Tom said “Excuse me if I jumped to conclusions but your wording led me to believe you insinuated that your opposition would double the numbers of wolves in Wyoming to fit their agenda.” Read it again. You certainly did jump to a conclusion.

T- Bone – 23 Elk is about 18,400 lbs a year. Calves are non-existant now , while in Jackson Hole BJ Hill went with the fellows feeding and counted 8 per hundred. A week later he counted 6 per hundred that was a month ago so it is safe to say there are no calves in Jackson Hole now.

If we use your number and plug it into the count today, against the count 3 yrs ago let’s see what we get. Three years ago there were 17,000 Elk in Jackson Hole on the feed ground. today there are 4,200 . Of those 4,200 2,500 stay in the valley the rest go back to the Slaughter House we call Yellowstone. So we take 2,500 from 4,200 =1700 To go back to Yellowstone. If we take 2500 from 17,000=14,500.

So in three years we have lost 12,800 Elk !!! Now if you use your #23 and divide that into 12,800 we get 557 Wolves if we divide that by 3 yrs we get 185 wolves ………..and that is just the Southern Herd and no calves figured into this in any way shape or form.
What was Lee saying about 124 Wolves total in Yellowstone ?????

I have seen that video. When it comes to the study on Isle Royale, I’m very well informed on this both from doing an extensive unit when I was teaching and from personal close ties to people involved with the collection portion of the research. It is a fascinating study and one I’ve often referred to but Tom has correctly told me that what is happening on Isle Royale is rather unique. I believe Rolf Peterson has also stated the same thing. What I’m talking about is a link that Tom put here at the BBB that I found through a link from someone who volunteers at the International Wolf Center.
Lee… I’ve said this before. I’ll say it again. I’m not for eradicating wolves. Ecosystems need predators. We wiped em out, it’s up to us to restore the balance in some way shape or form. Just as it’s our responsibility to make darn sure that balance doesn’t go out of whack again. Which… it sounds like it is. Ok so lets’ say that, maybe like the moose on Isle Royale, the elk herds crashed for…completely unrelated reasons to the wolf. Let’s just go there for a minute. Isn’t it up to us to make sure that the predators stay in balance with the herds?
There are those out there that want to say that nature will regulate itself… well… if that’s the case, why reintroduce the wolves at all? They would have wandered down here on their own eventually…. right? Look at the cougar. Wandered all the way the hell down to Chi town for crying out loud!
I don’t know, I’m rambling again, just thoughts that pop into my head. I can fully understand where people have had enough with being told how to manage their lands from people who don’t even live where they are.

Todd, I am trying to follow your logic, I had a bunch of questions with regards to your post. But i’ve narrowed it down to one. Do you agree or disagree with 23 elk per wolf, that includes calves?

Hey, at least we hunters can enjoy the modern day Lewis and Clark experience.. Sorry to all you old guys, crippled vets, and young kids wanting to learn to hunt, the surplus elk are gone, and the survivors are out of your reach.. Nuthin like chewin on a five by five bull thet has been runnin 24-7 from dogs..right into my arrow.. shoulda made shoes outta thet bull…

The number 23 is a number that YOU supplied to us here on the BBB. I simply plugged it into the known number of dead Elk . Using 23 you see the number 185 Wolves come to the top……….you ask about calves and how they would fit into the Equation ????

If you count calves as part of the #23,Calves would grow the POPULATION of Wolves Exponentially. For example how many calves does it take to make 800 lbs. also how many calves survive because one 800 lb Dry Cow is killed and consumed over a 4 day period thus allowing for the escape and survival of Cows with Calves.

So if you figure 16 calves =800 lbs you start to see the gravity of the situation. Let’s say that YOUR WOLF only eats Calves so we take your #23 times 16 = 368 Elk Calves Eaten per year by YOUR WOLF. What is interesting in doing the math on Calves is that it is not sustainable math just like Yellowstone’s Herds are not sustainable under the pressure that they have been subjected to by those who were entrusted by us with their care.

Aborted calves also can be calculated into this Equation. For instance using the 100 Cow Elk model that we all know. Befor the wolf 30 calves per hundred was the standard and at that rate we fed the Grizz and the Coyote and the Eagles. Today 30 calves per hundred Cow Elk is Non-Existant inside or outside Yellowstone proper , so if we find a herd of 500 cows with 15 calves per hundred it is spread acros the known population of Elk in that repective State Much like DOW used RMEF Elk numbers to paint a roier picture of the health of Elk in the west.

To be real you have to lay all the empty Wombs of all the Dry Cow Elk at the feet of the USFWS and their Wolf. Today if you have 16 calves per 100 cows , 84 Cows are dry because of the Wolf. In Jackson Hole where we know that there are 1700 Elk headed back into the “Gulag Yellowstone” you can add an additional 1,428 dead calves to the death toll in the Southern herd befor Calving even starts.

After 2005 you could add any living dry cow to the the Death Toll by virtue of her empty womb and any dead Cow Elk should be counted Twice and if you really wanted to get truthful any young Cow Elk should and could be counted based on the loss of all those calves that she will never produce.

We are going to have so much fun in court…….I can hardly wait !!!!

T Bone,

I must give you allot of credit. You have managed to remain somewhat cool over this entire debate. I commend you on that, and It is pretty rare in this debate.

Thank you,

I believe… a group hug is needed…

That’ll be the day ! Forget it ! We hang Rustlers In Idaho !

All this about how many elk wolves eat and kill. What about moose, deer, bears and everything else. I’m sure their numbers are probably averages but if there are fewer elk the wolves start killing what’s handy, they just don’t eat elk, they’ll take whats available, even coyotes, cats and other wolves.

Todd Fross

The range of the spotted owl is from the Cascades west through the Coast Range from northern California north into BC. It had nothing to do with closing logging in the Rockies.

Most of these meetings people go to, are managed by and facilitator, usually a FED and he/she has a compadre helping them out and they lead the meeting in the direction they want it to go, and if you don’t understand the play you will get your ass handed to you.. It is the Stakeholder Council System tactic used, operating organized to give community members a ” stake ” in the control over wild life- property- neighborhoods- The facilitators promote their own ideas and marginalize any opposition to the direction of the idea, meeting, management.. I’ve seen this at I.D.F.G. , county, city, meetings.. The meetings are arranged under the auspices of soliciting input from community members on a change, projected idea, new management plan, what ever, it’s the visioning process, been there done that, we all can tell them nope, and they still do it…They treat you like your nuts, hand you your ass.. The facilitator is being paid to bring the group, guide them to the already decided upon agenda, goal.. etc. etc.. it is not democracy it is a Soviet block model of dictatorship.. I can spot em now, you have a few of these folks replying at Maughans, and he likely is one, been one in the past.. Sierra guy an all.. that’s why he blocks his blog, he is even doing it on his blog, and then they marginalize and ban any opposition, and even marginalize folks who don’t play there, but point at them.. I’ve figured this out years ago and they want nothing to do with exposing this.. Cuzz they know all about it…

Harley, some more info on wolf sizes in the Rockies in the late1800s:

http://www.fullbooks.com/Hunting-the-Grisly-and-Other-Sketches3.html

That’s right Todd, Why would someone from California or another state come to Idaho to hunt? Idaho was known throughout the world as one of the best wilderness, and hunting experiences anywhere.

15 years ago if you ever heard someone talking about hunting, you would never hear anyone udder the phrase “Idaho is a terrible place to hunt, and there are no elk”. Today that is the reality. Today we are living proof that the agenda driven lunatic wolf cult has no business in managing wildlife. The reality is, they are running the F&G, and the USFWS. They are responsible for destroying 80 years of sound science, and predator management through herd management. The Wolf cult is directly responsible for the destruction of a billion dollar crop. The wolf cult is directly responsible for driving people from their land, and destroying the very way of life that made this a great place to live. The wolf Cult is responsible for killing thousands of elk, deer, and moose. Animal lovers? No way!

Will we ever see an end to this slaughter? I say yes, and the wolf cult is going to pay for it. They are going to loose their job’s at the fish and game. They will be forbidden to ever work as scientist’s again, or work in any capacity where the science based management is used. They will be publicly humiliated, and shown for what they truly are. The wolf cult scientist is nothing more than a animal exterminator.

Jim – You can hope in one hand and spit in the other and see which get’s full faster ! or you can throw in with us and see which get’s done faster. Since we are frrom Wyoming and in alot better shape than most we have a real opprotunity to make a differance. The days of Wishing are over !!!

Many of us are in the predicament we are in because we have compromised. We have willfully ignored all of the signs that have pointed to this end. Now we have woken up and are very angry.

I received a call last night from a hotel owner that does not hunt at all. They are closing the doors this month, and will be filing bankruptcy. They have been the victim of the so called myth, that wolf sight seer’s wold offset any economic impact caused by the illegal introduction of the Canadian Grey Wolf. He said he has never had a customer that was traveling to Idaho to watch wolves. His customers were usually out of state hunters. They would stay at his establishment several times before the hunt, and scout.

This nightmare is just beginning, and we will witness many stories just like this one. The man was sobbing as he told me this.I wonder how all those Biologist’s that falsified the elk numbers are going to cope with the mountain of evidence that is showing up? What ever happened to the moose study in Idaho? From my talk with Jim Hayden, no study has been conducted. Is all of the budget at the F&G being pilfered by the wolf study?

Todd, I spent several weekends late last fall predator hunting the Challis area, I saw the situation first hand. Also had a good friend and his father who are from Wa. hunt that area. They are not going back, they have put in for some Colorado tags. To add to your post above, according to the F&G survey on nonresident hunters, the overwhelming number 1 complaint is lack of game.
Many are under the impression the game is just scattered out, but the amount of time I spend with my spotting scope, it’s more than just scattered. Here is another fallacy, the elk are staying higher and are harder to find. 5 groups of elk I tend to follow, but not hunt are standing in hay fields and cow pastures in Sept. and Oct. Why, path of least resistance, shot at once in while,or run daily is my beleif.
As we’ve all been told elk used to be a plains animal, in the good old days, I think that’s true, note the long necks, big eyes etc. They had evolved so they could pick up predators at long distances and possibly out run them. In many areas I watch it looks to me they are reverting back to that. And most of the plains/farming areas are surrounded by roads, I’ve already seen a big increase in road kills on thos same groups of elk.

While your beating the compromise word up here’s some facts. In 2008 the state of F&G commission had proposed a 356 harvest. Then in 2009 it was reduced to 220, why those numbers. F&G commission needed a number that they could defend in federal court if need be, since the management of the wolf was still in the feds hands. Had all 3 states had an approved plan and control was turned over to the states, harvest numbers could have reflected the needs of the state, not just a conservative number, defendable in a liberal court. I wonder had the states had total control over wolf manangement since 2007/2008, what would the counts on both wolves and elk be today ? Continuing to keep wolf management in the feds hands is exactly what most liberal pro wolf people, so is getting it back under conservative management, compromise. I think you would call that a victory.

I leave the word invention up to you. Having elk to hunt is my focus. If you’ve already wrote what I said long ago, why are you challenging it and so what, if it’s good info why not repeat it once in while for possible new posters. As far a running me off, I may get tired of repeating myself, and watch it get twisted around. My focus is the issue, and if I have to step over, rut or 2 in the road to continue towards the goal so be it, that’s just the hazards. I don’t know who Lee is but if the issue of wolf/elk isn’t her main concern right now, she’s just sitting the bench in my game, because right now the focus need sto stay on the wolves/elk/deer.

Let me spell out what I consider compromise one last time. Do I need to capitalize and highlight for you, so you get.
Everyone understood and appreciated Wy stance on wolves. Most didn’t realize it would take this long to settle, and the hit it would put on the elk herds. Now we are seeing just what the effects are with continued federal control. Myself and others, feel it’s time to take a different stance “compromise” put together a plan for state management that can be accepted. Allow all 3 states to take control, and make their individual decisions, at if mistakes continue to be made your voices are certainly louder at the state level

Here’s my math one last time. If the states could have assumed control over wolf management 2 or 3 yrs. ago and implemented qouta’s and WS control to keep wolf numbers close to plan, while it continues to iron it self, there would be more elk/deer left.
After reading reports and study’s and watching the areial counts, I am in agreement with others that including calves, wolves kill closer to 23 elk per year. I don’t think it’s the exact hard figure but I think it’s alot closer than the 7/9 crap we’ve been told. If your multiplyer is different use it, the fact is more elk around today. To me a calf is an elk, a pregnant cow the first of June is an elk and 1/3.
So and I’ll go slow — if all 3 states would have had control and there were wolf hunting seasons, in all 3 states, you could take the number of wolves killed and multiply it by the number of elk those wolves would have needed to eat to survive and it would give a very rough idea of where the numbers might be today. This doesn’t even take into account the wolves removed by state predator control services. I live in an area where mule deer numbers crashed, and I consider a big mule deer buck the ultimate trophy. After 17 yrs. of different management strategies, and mild winters, we are seeing a bit of a return. 17yrs. and still were just making a little bit of progress. If we continue down the road were on, the opportunity to walk up to the first bull with our grandson or grandaughter, and see the smiles, are lost. And the lower the population of elk goes the longer it’s going to take to recover. Putting your finger in the dike doesn’t solve the leak but it can slow it down till the final fix can take place.

I realize they are here. It’s my contention the culprits responsible are criminal entities: USFWS as well as the USFS. You know where they come from and what their ulitmate goals are. Just look around at the devastaton taking place and we’re talking about How to manage A Total onslaught of Crime. What a waste of time; to saying, what the so-called USFS has done to our forests for their agenda of non-manage bullshit ruination.

It’s very simple to me. Shoot, shoot and shoot the dog. Prosecute, prosecute and prosecute the ones responsible. USFWS, USFS, should be disbanned, ignored and imprisoned, immediately. = Wolf management, no compromises.

T-Bone- Those meetings where all are in agreement befor you get there is exactly the kind of meetings you have been attending. ……and thus your Ass is handed to you.

To me a calf is an elk, a pregnant cow the first of June is an elk and 1/3……this is not accurate……..and one has to wonder why you would consider a 50lb. Elk calf to be eaqual to an 800 lb. Cow ??? The only reason I can come up with would be to down play the Damage being done by the Wolf !!! There is no other REASON .

I think everyone has been more than patient as you wiggled around appearing then disappearing but I think your Elk calf mistake is a corner that you painted yourself into. NO HUNTER WOULD EVER HAVE MADE THAT MISTAKE.

ADIOS” GREENIE !!!!!

Si’Vet T-Bone, we can all see what is happening on the ground in our particular haunts, some are better than others.. If you are going to have success at the fixed meetings, at least recognizing the games being acted out for less wise observers benefit, you might brush up on the hegelianistic political sciences being used to defeat us, i.e. handing honest folks their ass.. Good luck playing trivial pursuits with those playing you.. We’ll keep on with the fight our way because socialist communist Marxist anti hunting NGO sponsored groups only pretend to come to terms wit their target community’s acting in defense of their lively hoods and resources.. Once they lie, subvert, cheat or steal, it’s flat out time to move on from them.. I.D.F.G is in direct violation of the contract with the people concerning funds management, and game management.. NUFF SAID.

The Russians proved hunting wolves on foot with any kind of weapon does not save game herds period. So did Alaskan Frank Glaser during his 1915-55 wolf hunting adventures to save moose and other critters.. Delisted or Relisted is irrelevant. I find you to be apathetic.. The political scientific definitions pointed out to your lazy dumb ass are a reality, ignoring those truths is stupid.

think you can bully and bs and always get your way. Comparing the expanse and enviroment of Russia to modern day Id.Wy.Mt. And Alaska, 55 to 90 yrs ago. your a blowhard, bullfrog mouth canary a–.

Yup their relist and I’m delist, been going round and round over there for awhile. Been booted off several times, hard to stay in control all the time. So in order to keep fighting the fight I have to try and keep it tempered, it ain’t easy as you’ve observed. I may have not changed anyones mind I’ve been able to share the truth about most hunters and some hunting activities and orginizations. whether they chose to believe it or not. so after going round and round with BJ etc, my skin is pretty thick, and my goal is still delist. And get the numbers down, they know it over there and so should you.

The only way to compromise with collectivists is to join them. that’s it !, I’ve studied communist ideology for thirty ears. I’ve patterned monster bucks for 35 years.. Nothing changes..

T- Bone – It’s your Mountain Bike ! Everyone can see it !

Contempt prior to investigation of all the evidence, do you weed your yard by mowing them down, or do you pull them out root and all ? I’m right, and you are misinformed.. You cannot deal with them you must expose them.. PERIOD.

Mountain bike ???? Next it’ll be what, picky nose. What’s the matter Todd, I thought maybe you could post pictures of some 800 lb. cow elk. Did you paint yourself into a corner with those numbers…

Greg, I dislike it as well, and there is no way I can one up 200″ with a long bow. I’m not the guy ruining it, I’ll do what I can to try and save it for both of us. i am taking a different approach, I am not questioning your commitment, I am committed as well, just a different approach. Maybe one of us will have luck, no use sitting in the same tree stand.

4 over 200 with long bow appreciate the link. I lost the deer herd close enough to pattern. Population was so bad, I moved me and my 2 young sons to N. Id. late season, deep snow, not many muley’s a little success. recent reg changes, limited hunt, found 190+ buck 2 years ago, only moves right at dark. Found him this winter, still alive. Hope to find him mid august to start pattern.

No one with long bow, the others with compound bow. Five cow elk and two bulls though with the long bow.. Four 200″ with arrow.. Nearly took a 40″ ten by eleven in there but he smoked me..

I don’t know if a man can find a forty inch buck in Idaho any more.. I’ve spent thousands of dollars and miles traveling the southern winter ranges, which is a habit since a kid to horn hunt, and then I could see the monster bucks before they shed and I knew they were real.. that changed to elk herd watching, to estimate predation damage, and I rarely see a good buck in those winter ranges now.. Seeing the serious changes at the winter ranges which i grew up watching has proven to me some one is blowing smoke up our arse about elk population numbers.. Cripes, i can list off several watersheds and basins, which I had named elk herd by, that are flat out gone.. White Hawk Basin, Bridal Veil Falls, Zumwalt Mountain… Barnard Mountain… etc. etc..

Well it’s the Sawtooth Zone, Mark told you folks the truth, only it’s worse than he let on.. I’ll stick another cow.. Check a couple buck pastures.. I noticed a toad last year so if he is around I might try to zing him.. And I’ve noticed less wolves.. I think we crashed, and they did to, some died out, some left.. I tried to arrow a wolf, no cigar yet..

thought about skipping elk as well, for the same reason. If I skip elk, I will be hunting wolf if we have a season. Calling in a wolf and have it bearing down on you at 20 yds is a hoot, there all puffed up. All you have to do any more is higher 25 outfitters to put out 250 cameras over licks and presto, big buck, for big bucks..

Hey T bone,

You have to be one dense SOB. I am telling you, there will be no compromise, and you keep pounding that drum.No way, now how, will we ever sit at the table with the friggen Gulag.

Get this through your thick skull. We will not subscribe to you defeatist mentality.

I have given all I can. What more do I have to give up for the Fake T Bone to understand? BTW WTF is his name anyway. Why the anonymity? T Bone, what is your name, and where the “F” are you From? We all use our names, and are right up front. I do believe you are one of Ralphies boy’s.

Rockholm~
Saw some of your videos. Loved the scenic views! Wow. Makes me feel I’m really missing something here in the midwest. I also saw the one with your daughter where she was interviewing the wolf people. Neat kid.
I just want to clear it up in my mind because when you guys all go back and forth sometimes where a person firmly stands can get lost in the disgust and frustration and anger on both sides.
You want wolves controlled, not eliminated completely, correct? I got that impression from the videos that you want that original agreement kept and for the environmentalists to stop moving the goal posts. (really like that phrase, it conveys so much) Anyway, I was just curious. I am by no means a hunter. I appreciate all kinds of wild life. I think that if we mess things up, we should also fix them. But let me stress, I am not out there in the thick of things. I sit here in my comfy suburban home and try to educate myself a bit further. I used to side with the wolfies but as I read more and more from the people that actually live where all this stuff is happening, I’m finding myself learning. Lee once told me to keep asking questions but I don’t think she likes where my questions led me!
Anyway, thanks!

Todd,Rock, I believe this is Tom’s site so I’ll troll here until he boots me.
Greg knows my point on the big bucks for big bucks, it has nothing to with outfitters, has to do with people buying big bucks. Get in shape hire an outfitter, that’s what I call a hunt. Don’t hire an outfitter to just drive you up to the animal, or spend 2 weeks in a chopper and call that prescouting. The outfitters I associate with appreciate taking out clients who can hunt. Again as for compromise, not in my origainal post, compromise was first brought up by Jay. I have lived in Idaho, and hunted Idaho my whole life. As far a Californians and Washintonian’s I met several who were pretty good and very dedicated to the sport. I used to get upset by out of staters, or for that matter all you had to do was be out of county. But with what’s happened lately, I am more tempered, they are hunters and Id. WY. Mt. needs there support.
I hope you can spot game better that you think you can spot a nonhunter.
Still waiting for the picture of an 800 lb. RM cow elk.

Like I said you ought to peddle on out of here , we hunt real Elk and they are REAL BIG even the Cows – Wiki will get you in trouble every time…….NEXT !!!!!

Elk is a large species of the deer family. Mature bulls will range in weight from 800 to 1,000 pounds, while cows will weigh 600 to 800 pounds. Elk are predominantly raised for their antlers, which are promoted for use as an aphrodisiac in Korea. Some producers raise large bulls for game hunting. Others maintain a herd for aesthetic reasons. The market for elk meat has not been developed because the animals are more valuable when produced for other uses. As the industry matures and the value of breeding stock declines, meat production will likely become an important market for elk producers.

I don’t see how we are helping this problem by funding and agency which is so far under budget from hunter participation loss, 7 million as of April 09, and years of misuse of those funds towards projects which do not support big game conservation. As well since 1993 to date the IDFG-FWS-and the Forestry do nothing anymore service stopped using abundance ecology which requires a direct relationship between man and the land and turned to Shortage Ecology as outlined in the sustainable development evolutionary dogma now being fully used, which is to control or limit human action, more closed roads, etc. etc.. The garbly gook in this Biodiversity New Age ” Science ” is monstrous and obviously is failing, the end result will be, by design, to end hunting.. I’ve noticed far less hunters in my Sawtooth Zones.. Far less, we are seeing willing non participation due to a lack of big game.. this is beautiful because it is the hegelian problem reaction solution taking place right in front of us..Sorry T but you cannot negotiate, compromise, or change the course of action which is rolling along, you can bone up on the truth and facts and try to defend your free lifestyle as we are doing, I promise you you will feel better about yourself in the long run.. Like I said before, you will come realize this, It is not bullying, it is telling the truth.. Just think about this, why did we implement U.N. Sciences to manage our hunting.. ? it is no good, just as funds have been stolen, misused, our trust has been violated. These models are in direct confrontation with state and federal constitutional laws.. including congressional acts, such as the Roberts and Pittman Act.. I spent 18 years sitting in IDFG meetings. They don’t listen to hunters anymore.. Maybe they’ll listen to a multi million dollar lawsuit and court now.. You can never stand on fraud no matter how right it feels.. Their crying bully, blah blah blah, because the truth is coming, and a mountain of lies is going down.. If state agencies are going to set aside constitutional restraints and install U.N. protocols for world biodiversity according those writers of their theoretical paper, it seems to me state government public servants ought to ask we the peoples opinions concerning the ideology first before going ahead with it.. And vigilant Americans ought to ask why this has happened instead of just going with the flow, tolerating violations of law.. mocking other Americans who know about the criminal activity… Compromise is hope.. Hope never did any thing.. Only aggressive action gets things done..

Rock, I didn’t, know about your media work, that’ why the misunderstanding with reference to an interview. Certainly wasn’t my agenda, in fact this whole exchange wouldn’t have happened had a kidney stone not kept me from being in Jackson, I was just over the hill at our place in Driggs. Also I have a son who edits hunting video, I know how much time and work it takes to put together even a short clip, so if I’ve made reference during this exchange with regards to your efforts, it was wrong. Those 2 young men on the stage at the beginning are what this is really all about.I have 3 sons, they hunt and pay taxes.

Rock, my sons advanced degree is in the communication field, he is very good at what he does, a diving accident several years ago, took away his mobility, but not his spirit. His last deer hunt was in unit 1 in your neck of the woods, it was a tough hunt. But it makes the memories even that much better. He’s editing for a couple of young guy’s just getting started, they recieved great reviews at the shot show in Reno, this spring. If you need any help with the video from Bozeman, let me know. He would be more than willing to help. If it weren’t for the accident, wolves would be in alot of trouble, he was a natural marksman, kicks his old mans butt. Again don’t hesitate if you need help.

Tbone, I have to admit, I’ve changed my opinion of you….You’ve stayed the course, and have held up your end. You have held up to the challenge of your hunting credentials, and have passed my “evaluation”….for what it’s worth….

Maybe we have both learned something here, and how to hold rank among the non-hunters even though we have divergent views is one of them.

The goal is simple enough, but how to get there “again” is the pressing question.
What a shame that the introduction of wolves has spread like a virus, instead of doing what was originally it was intended to do in balancing the herds within parks that are not legal for hunting……

I’m thinking that if enough is not done to control them on the state level that you would have, then once again, you are putting a problem with the states that was originally instituted by the federal government, and their control is still keeping the problem there no matter what the states think, or how they intend to “regulate” it. And that means no solution, but only continued mismanagement. Throw in the federal mismanagement with the state’s mismanagement, and you have continuing problems, and no elk or deer.

The one thing I can agree with is both increased efforts in getting information out among the population, and probably foremost, is lawsuits which they will take note of…since these days there are few hunters and much more unknowing city dwellers who thinks wolves are pretty to look at….

jes, appreciated, how to get there is the key. I knew nothing about this site, and I am no computer internet whiz, and I am not a surfer. I’ve felt like my sons, my hunting buddy’s and myself, were the only ones really taking this fight serious, and every once in a while, a few folks would show up say and do some out landish things and drive off some of the support. So my next approach was try and give a hunters point of view on the situation, if that meant sitting down listening first, and staying in control, then what ever it takes. And I’ve had very little success there as well. I’ve also talked with ranchers, and gotten there thoughts. It’s a tough situation, and if you are willing to fight the fight you better have some thick skin. With 3 sons and 1 grandson, who love to hunt, there isn’t anything I’m not willing to face period. As rugged as the conversations got here, and the cheap shots, I was smiling inside because I found folks like, greg,rock,todd, and yourself who aren’t just flashes in pan, I’m not a pack of one. it’s the real deal.

A little Forestry does nothing Diservice Stupid science being taught in a University.. Next stop the delusional Ohio State numbskulls pushing Sustainable agendas and general fund taxation to take out hunting forever.. ( I read Bruskotters brain washing pathological insanity quite often, dude is spun spun spun )

http://westinstenv.org/sosf/2010/02/25/more-junk-forest-science-from-osu/

A 21 pound Rainbow, would beat the Idaho State record of 20 pounds.. I’ve caught 20 ” inch rainbows a plenty..

Greg, I can’t post right, can’t read right. Good luck with the fish, and real good luck on finding a herd of elk. I was in the FC first of March for 5 days. 2 cows on slopes I’ve seen hundreds. When you get back fill me in on what you the elk numbers looked like to you.

Rock, my son said keeping pulling the trigger (shooting film) more to work with the better. Then he started talking giga bites, mega bites, mosquito bites, etc. compatability or what ever. He’s on board. I’ll send Tom my cell number, let you guys hook up, so I’m not stuck in the middle, and we give the site a rest.

T bone
As I said earlier “Thanks for trying to interject some reason into this dialog”.

Congratulations on your apparent success at getting on talking terms with the hard core folks here and I hope for progress in the future. A resolution of this situation is needed. I admire your persistance.

Lee I’ve read through your posts, I’m new here, in all honesty, I would be interested on your positions, you hang in there in a pretty tough crowd. Why.
My agenda has always been, having hunting opportunity’s to share with my son’s and grandsons as long as I’m able. Love watching them face the challenges of the hunt, weather, tough terrain, not settling for just any animal, the practice, prep. And then IF it all comes together. the work starts, coping with heavy packs, the weather the terrain. then long after the hunting season is over, the memories, the joking, the ribbing, did I mention the memories. I have a son, who was in an accident and is a C-5 quad, he was 16 already had colleges looking at him from a distance. We traveled all over the northwest watching him play ball, hit home runs make plays. that you could only shake your head at. When we get together as family now, which we do very often, we very seldom talk about old baseball days. When we walk down memory lane it’s always about hunting, hiking, floundering, packing, bad shots, good shots, bad camp food, good camp food. Hunting isn’t for everyone. neither is golf, soccer, etc. But living here in America where so many have sacrificed it all so we can share these freedoms, it’s only fair the next 16 yrs. who suffers a terrible accident has had the choice to have those memories to hold on to through tough times?

Todd,

In Barb Lee Rupers case, reason is of her own minds making and only that version of her definition of reason is going to suit her. If one were to read Galton, Darwins half cousin then one begins to under stand the agnostic evolutionary mind. ” Elite Status is prima facie evidence of evolutionary superiority. ” Charles Darwin.. Scientism thru Darwinism is bringing, actually has brought forth social change, social Darwinism is eugenics, of the less educated, reasonable, articulate, according to them, who apparently evolved, a couple more years in the class room equates super intelligence.. At this point in America it has not reached the open genocidal stage in which it is historically known for, but it certainly has reached a superiority stage with the we are better than you people mentality.. Thanks so much to Rockefeller’s friend John Communist eugenicist Dewey..

You got it, their baby killers, if not in the physical aspect certainly in the mental aspect.. It all ties together.. There is no getting around the foundations of this movement in America, From Helena P. Blavatsky, Alice Baily, Margaret Sangor, Lucis Trust, the U.N. and Environmentalisms usurping of real conservation..

” For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed, neither hid, that shall not be known.” Luke 12:2

I’ll tell what’s hidden and is yet to be revealed is an Apology coming forth from the lips of either of these two……….and it’s real babies being Aborted that kill the Mental ones of which you spoke so eloquently but it is the mental baby that dies first.

Jes there is no way to Justify anything that Lee stands for, thus her unbelief in God. You wrestle with it but God doesn’t, you try to under stand it but you can’t make sense out of Non sense and I don’t think God bothers with it. They are Weeds, they are chaff, they are the dead wood ,it is their choice and they are what makes the road harder, ask an Elk if Lee’s beliefs have made his road easier ask me if Lee’s Wolf has made this a better world for anyone but Lee and those like Lee…….the answer is NO AND HELL NO !!!! Ask any of the 22 thousand dead Mexicans if Lee’s Pot Smoking friends came to even one of their funerals, ask any of the 80 thousand Dead Elk if any of Lee’s friends bought a token license to help pay at least something for the feeding of their Wolf. Ask any of Lee’s friends who have Aborted children if they consider themselves Humans .

Restitution in our case amounts to acknowleging to me that you were Wrong which you did finally ,thank you. As to your belief that you are not argumentative is not accurate you lobbed “Elk Don’t Weigh 800Lb Grenades” my way for quite sometime .

All’s well that ends well and You in your Life that has no compromise and me with mine leaves us both well aware of Injustice for All !!!

Then she should have moved to Canada, less humans and more wolves, this would have been far more polite than supporting the destruction which has occurred in My backyard known as Idaho, we live it, we see it, according to them we are unreasonable for trying to bring forth the truth of the situation which contradicts all those scientific theories they faithfully cling to.. I will add that Priest Maughan himself does not live with wolves..Neither does the majority of his following. The wolf is just one more tool in the process of the destruction of hunting, the middle class, private property rights, and the destruction of a resource even these wolf nuts will come to regret at some point in the future once the financial aspect of this war finally brings about hyper inflation, and the crash all together of the economy. Then their little tummy’s will understand the meaning of no resources. And I don’t just mean elk, but also farming, ranching, and no doubt fishing, and now of course the resources of the Gulf of Mexico being ruined this very moment, by a British Petroleum oil Rig, how special.. Accident my ass..

jes
Do you have a source to back this up?

“And it was sold to the people to only be brought about in the national parks, in the first place! ” (wolf restoration”

How was the idea sold… it sounds to me like it was sold by promises that were never kept and maybe a little bit of guilt. I gotta admit, it bothers me some when Rockholm and others show how a carcass gets ravaged by a wolf. On one hand I’m like, omg, poor animal, on the other hand I think, isn’t that how a wolf survives? I feel emotions pushing me in several ways.

I think that might be how it was sold to the American public. I remember in high school seeing pictures of wolves slaughtered by the hundreds, carcasses hanging up on walls, sheds and how the picture of the big bad wolf was all a lie, that they were all killed for no reason. I felt bad for ‘what we did’ to the wolves. I was lead to conclusions mostly by emotion and by reading such things as, wolves don’t attack people, wolves only go for the sick and unhealthy. I used to think well hell, why did we exterminate them? It was all based on irrational fear!

I started out at Wolfcrossing as a pro wolfie and it used to piss me off seeing pictures of maimed slaughtered domesticated animals and how people blamed the big bad wolf. I used to think that’s what they do! They kill stuff, right? Why are people showing these gruesome pictures to stir up trouble? Since visiting here and interacting more with the people here, I’ve gained a different perspective on things. But using emotions to manipulate people is a very powerful tool.

The wolf idea is a good idea, the problem with it is the emotion, over protection, and the out right denial and insulting marginalization of those of us living it, seeing it, and realizing we were lied to. DoW turning it into a political football, Who voted for DoW ? Their just another terrorist group like Black Water.. This never had a chance at success with the ideology that wolves will manage eco systems and man must get out of the way.. This is a rural setting, there must be tight control of this predator which works as a unit to bring down it’s prey.. What do we have now ? less elk, no surplus elk, no, or very little revenue from elk hunters, and less wolves to look at.. And every body is mad. What is out of balance is government agencies, to many scientists with evolutionary beliefs out numbering scientists with designer beliefs who feel differently about the situation and who are also afraid to speak up.. And somebody comes on here and whines about reason.. Gimme a break. I will add that the above opinion of mine does not approve of fraud to bring about any type of management practices concerning wilderness and national forest lands.. I believe in design, thus control, thus the responsibility to see that wolves do not decimate the prey we share is in mans hands, and that responsibility has been shirked while the so-called naturalists stand in the way of reason.

jes,

Yes, I do remember the press releases at the time and was glad to hear that Idaho was to be one of the reintroduction areas. The release of the 1996 wolves was at Daggar Falls on the MF of the Salmon River which is at the southern boundary of the FCW. It is just above the launch site for floating the MFS which I have done several times both before and after 1996.

I figured you had no documentation since their isn’t any.

USFWS passed legislation related to the reintroduction of GRAY wolves into YNP AND wilderness areas of central Idaho.
http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Zoology-and-wildlife-conservation/Wolf-reintroduction-approved-for-Yellowstone-and-central-Idaho.html#ixzz0mzTGoDe2

This week, the Department of Interior said that gray wolves would be reintroduced on an experimental basis in YNP and part of Idaho . NPR All Things Considered; Article date: May 6, 1994.

A draft EIS was released to the public in 1993 and finalized in May 1994. Three recovery zones were originally considered: Greater Yellowstone Area (not just Yellowstone National Park), central Idaho, and Monana; the latter was dropped since it had been documented that gray wolves were coming in on their own from Canada.

So Lee you can tell the differance between 124 Wolves and 3000 !!!

Lee,

What about guilty by association, as all of these new age era environmental policies, financial, economical are based on Agenda 21, which is population control measures including the eugenics aspect of the policies.. Of course the Sangor measures are far older than the updated Agenda, but still relates legally according to the many sources I’ve shown over the last few years here..

Appreciate the wish for my success fulfilling a fishing dream.

Greg
It was a personal verbal attack by Foss and had nothing to do with guilt by association. I have since highschool said two kids per couple – I had two.

Best fishing I ever had was in the Bob Marshall W for native cutthroat . Beautiful country, water, and scenery. With no animosity I want you to have a great summer fishing for that great rainbow.

Keep smiling Lee, your glee will soon turn to sadness when you finally find out you were the victim of Fraud. I have evidence, and video that will make you cry your eye’s out. Be ready for it Lee, and start the sessions with the shrink before it begins. That way we will know you will be okay.

Lee… have you ever tried Dancing With the Stars? Because you do a very good dance step here. I think you understood what I meant but you chose not to answer. You realize that only confirms what is being said here, right? Stop avoiding the question!
Sub species!
A type of wolf that was not originally from Idaho. A wolf more commonly found in Canada. One that is not native to Idaho. A wolf of a variety what was not found in Idaho before re-introduction.
Is that clear enough? I’m sorry, even my special ed students would have understood the question when presented with the same wording and phrasing…

“I have since highschool said two kids per couple – I had two.” — Lee

And just exactly who are YOU to say anything about what others choose to do or how many children they have? I have seen your post where you support a state mandated limit.

Do you not see the irony in your own ideology?
Man must not control nature, he is not a part of it…but we must control man, as he is exempt from the laws of nature.
I am smarter than you, therefore, I will make your decisions.
You see Lee, the shortsighted opinions you carry have one serious fault, and that fault is that ‘you and your ilk’ think you’ll be the ones making the decisions, I wouldn’t be so sure of that if I were you, and you are really going to be upset at the outcome when you’re not.

Lee, you may not even realize it, but it is glaringly clear to most of us that you are in fact a devout communist. You referenced a song in the other thread (outfitter) that was written by a communist, and the song itself promotes communism and you roll it out proudly. Yet, somehow you probably don’t even see that, it would take a very shallow thinker to believe otherwise. You have promoted population control, you have supported a big federal government takeover, you ignore the states place and more importantly, the people’s place. That leaves me with no other conclusion, than the one I have come to. For a bunch of self proclaimed ‘smart’ people, you’re not very.

It may not even be you’re fault, perhaps you are just another victim of the indoctrination that takes place in our ‘higher education’ system in this country over the last 75 years, I don’t know. But, neither do I worry about it, if a person isn’t intelligent enough to recognize it, step away from it, I will give them no pass for their anti-American rhetoric or beliefs.

And, yes, I have read your posts over at Ralphie’s, I enjoy that site as it exposes you fools, you are all very comfortable over there and feel accepted and free to let your real opinions flow out onto the internet. And those posts, and that site remind me of the teachers lounge in one of our colleges, where the ‘educated’ separate themselves from the serfs and convince each other that they are oh so right, also known today as “peer review” and “critical thinking” in the modern progressives (communist) mindset. You are one of the few that feel so superior that you believe you can somehow step out into the opposing blogs and make some relevant point, yet you only further solidify your failures.
Lee, you have to own all your posts, on every site. This is not a courtroom nor is it a structured debate, this is a place where all the truth is allowed from all sources. Live with it.

Barry – We keep making the same mistake, we keep thinking that we are dealing with another Human , when in fact they are not Human. These people “Kill Babies”, these people are “Killing Mexicans”, these people have “Killed over 80 thousand Elk”. THESE PEOPLE HATE HUMANS !!! We are HUMANS and they are just people.

Case in point look back at how Lee refered to her Spawn – ” I had two” ????…….I don’t think she ever had any and if she did she gave it away.

We are not dealing with Humans and the sooner we realize that the sooner we will stop throwing our Pearls befor the Swine.

Harley
I just refreshed the page before I was going to respond to your question. I will continue even though you are “through with me”,

You asked ” If the species that was released into any wilderness was in fact a non-native species, would you be fighting so hard to keep em there?” The answer is yes.

Tell me what you mean by non-native. If a wolf from Minnesota had been introduced to Idaho would that be native or non-native subspecies?

And I ask you if the northern boundary between USA & Canada was at 54 degrees 40 minutes would the reintroduced wolves then be considered non-native?

I apologize for the delayed repsonse.

One more thing Lee~
And actually, forget all the arguments about native and non native species. It’s obvious that the elk herds and other ungulate herds are suffering. Whether it’s from the wolf, ticks, whatever. Numbers are going down. Doesn’t it just make sense to cut down on the number of predators too until the herds rebound? Or are the wolves more important? Or do you just not believe that that the herd numbers are crashing? Or will it be ok if there aren’t enough ‘natural’ food sources that the wolves can just pick a few cattle to fill their empty bellies? I mean come on Lee! Doesn’t it make more sense to make sure there’s enough food for the wolves to eat so they don’t cause more serious trouble?? Or do we want more incidences like what happened in Alaska? Oh wait, that probably wasn’t the wolf’s fault… was it….

She opposes non native sheep and cattle.. Lol..

Todd
I very much understand the anti human element we are dealing with, the shallow thinking product of the universal government education system. The hippies of the 60’s that so hated “The Man” who have now in turn, became, “The Man”. Only they are far more oppressive and pass far more regulations and squelch freedom beyond anything ever even pondered by “The Man” they fought against. I believe their sole emotional attachment to the wolf they so revere is nothing more than a wish they themselves weren’t so weak and insignificant, they see it as their power. They look to Uncle Sugar for their well being, they have been taught that man is at the center of all the ills of the world. And by their thinking so, they have elevated themselves to the stature of ‘enlightened’.

But, there is one fact. People like Lee and her ilk will never see the other side of the situation, for they rely solely on emotion, and emotion requires no factual input in order to cling to it, and emotion allows for the discarding of opposing information without consideration. I don’t ever delude myself that there is any turning these shallow thinkers around. I solely post to expose them for what they are so those who may be undecided can see them for what they represent. And more importantly, what we represent, and the facts we put forth, and the freedom of the people we will fight for against these types who would be all to willing to take it away from them.

Barry

I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT GET A KICK OUT OF THIS BIT OF DISINFORMATION THAT IRUNNING OVER A RALPH’S . i TRIED TO CORRECT THEM AND HE BLOCKED ME !

Vet’s View on Tapeworms, Wolves, Coyotes, Foxes and Elk
May 6, 2010 — Ralph Maughan
Respected wildlife vet says reintroduced wolves had no tapeworms when they were brought down from Canada-
The anti-wolf fringe is working 26-hours a day trying to scare people about wolves and tapeworms. The media has hardly bothered to cover them, so with each news release they get more extreme. They are having a rally at Libby MT where they say even the air in NW Montana is dangerous to breathe because it is full of tapeworm larva.

There is no doubt that maybe half the wolves are infested with Echinococcus, but Mark Johnson who participated in the wolf capture and treatment of the new wolves says they didn’t have this infestation when they were processed.

As I’ve said from the start, the parasite was already here. A Google search tracked its presence in Oregon in deer back to the 1920s.

Vet’s View on Tapeworms, Wolves, Coyotes, Foxes and Elk. Public News Service.

“[Veterinarian Mark] Johnson notes that human cases are rare since egg-laden feces must be ingested to become infected.”

So it’s doubtful anyone is going to be infected with Echinococcus except those stupid enough to eat canid shit, but given the hysteria from this band of clowns who knows what they’ll do.

Posted in Wolves, wildlife disease. Tags: Echinococcus, tapeworms. 6 Comments »
6 Responses to “Vet’s View on Tapeworms, Wolves, Coyotes, Foxes and Elk”
Maska Says:
May 6, 2010 at 5:47 PM
Anybody who has ever had a dog infested with tapeworm knows this argument by the wolf detractors is bogus in the extreme. Our first dog, acquired from a rather unscrupulous breeder in the Midwest, had tapeworm, along with roundworms and hookworms–the whole works–when he arrived as a four-month-old pup.

We treated him according to the vet’s advice, took reasonable precautions (e.g. handwashing after cleaning up after him), and were careful not to “ingest” his feces (yuk). He was fine after treatment, and we remained tapeworm-free. Nor did we acquire roundworms or hookworms.

Parents of small children who find themselves with a pet harboring tapeworm–or any kind of parasite–should monitor their children’s interactions with the pet, but if this were a big issue, nobody would keep dogs or cats. As for wolves…well, unless you go around looking for wild canid scats to munch, you’re probably quite safe.

Is there anything some folks aren’t afraid of? ^..^

Reply
JEFF E Says:
May 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM
My guess is that the most likely point of infection of wolves would be domestic sheep as it is pretty well documented that sheepherders represent the highest percentage of human cases for this disease historically.
Hope everyone enjoyed that leg of lamb this past Easter.
mmmm

Reply
Ralph Maughan Says:
May 6, 2010 at 7:45 PM
Jeff E

And I think we can guess correctly that those who are leading the tapeworm hysteria are not people who give a damn about protection of the sheepherders.

Reply
Cody Coyote Says:
May 7, 2010 at 8:03 AM
If this cyst were found in Bison , the Montana Department of Livestock would immediately begin a quarantine, test and slaughter program , wouldn’t they ? So Let’s ask them to do the same for domestic cattle and sheep, the carriers of the Big E.

Once people realize this worm is prevalent, the Wolves didn’t bring it from Canada but inherited it from local deer and elk and maybe an occasional barnyard or range animal that they themselves also live around and consume with vigor , this worthless rhetorical issue should subside.

The real disease at work here here is Mass Hysteria among the anti-wolfers, who grasp and grope for anything to indict wolves, however preposterous. In the end, that embarrasses them or annulls their rhetoric. Or at least it should.

Reply
Elk275 Says:
May 8, 2010 at 2:22 PM
There is another way to look at this: most people do not have horses, but find someone with horses and help them with worming. The next day go out in the pasture and kick some new horse truds. If one saw all the dead worms there would a new effort to restrict or outlaw horse ownership.

Phil Maker Says:
May 8, 2010 at 2:09 PM
Eat up you fear-mongering anti-wolfers, in order to make your case that wolves are destined to be the ruin of the NRM states! Bon appetit.

Reply
Free coyote Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
May 11, 2010 at 7:14 AM
Why are you not posting my comments, what you are saying about the tape worm is “Wrong”!!! What was said about sheep is Wrong !! Why are you doing this ?

Reply

Yeah, just more denial from the wolfies, nothing new. Although there is a pretty extensive study that shows it wasn’t here before the wolf was brought in. But like all studies they don’t like, they just ignore it. They will try and dilute the issue, name the wrong worm, deny the devastation of our wildlife (even if it means grasping onto the debunked GW straw).

Welcome to the crowd………blocked at Ralphie’s is a badge of honor in your ability to state the truth and differentiate between fact and fiction.

I will make sure I forward their uncaring remarks to the family of those infected in the future. It is very obvious that human lives are rather meaningless to this crowd.

Just in case you guys missed what Bob Fanning posted on another post, check out the event in Bozeman…
WHO: Jim Beers, former Chief of National Wildlife Refuge Operations
WHAT: Public presentation on fraud and deceit employed in the dangerous wolf “reintroduction” program
WHEN: Sunday, May 16, 2010
WHERE: Gran Tree Inn in Bozeman, Montana
http://www.westerntradition.org/?p=805

I am so pleased by the support FOTNYEH (Bob Fanning) has received. I think in the beginning, we entertained the idea we would have a few dozen motivated and highly respected folks show up to digest the information presented by Mr. Beers. I now feel very confident, we will be overwhelmed with a huge show of support. It is the tireless work of Mr. Fanning that has brought this very informative presentation to us.
He should feel very proud of his accomplishment, and this will give him the backing he need’s to proceed with the Litigation.

One day I will tell my grandchildren of this battle, and how proud I am to be one of the people associated with Bob Fanning. It is truly an honor.

Harley- They are a special bunch alright. I find their irony especially humorous. Their day is coming, the exposure of their deceit will be their undoing. Then they’ll really have something to howl (pun intended ;-)) about.

Barry “Although there is a pretty extensive study that shows it wasn’t here before the wolf was brought in. ”

Reference to this extensive study?

Harley,

The real reason I hassle that site is due to their so obvious communist habits, mainly censoring, I actually learned some of my marginalization tactics from them to use against them. And they over their act like their special, they whine about grammar, specific scientific definition, and of course only they can play nasty, they bad mouth me constantly, but disallow me to defend myself or my name..

Jeff E continually takes his pot shots at me, which in my opinion is funny at best, He has done quite a bit of research, 30 years of it according to him, concerning the wild life topics, and apparently wolves, probably more so than myself, where I out did him would be personal hunting, horse packing, back country travel and camping. Of course I studied communism, Constitutionalism, political sciences, Civil War History and politics, and of course world history, I have hundreds of books from the last five hundred years concerning those topics, many of them very rare and expensive..

Jeff E was offended by my studies and never shared his with me.. Of course I disagree with them, but I do not desire to post there, the topics are to limited, the conversations are to limited, and the respect from them towards others is limited, thus my disrespect towards them, they actually started this feud with me by lying about me, and slandering me..

I don’t care if it is a blog or the side walk, if you punch me, I will punch you back harder.. Most people are scared blind little sheep, I would rather be a wise old Shepard.. We know who rules this world, the Bible points to them.. And so do I.. Jeff Es jokes about pope greg are funny.. Some day he is in for a rude awakening.. He won’t be able to run and hide at some moderated blog site then.. Those guys over there talk about branches while avoiding root causes, my opinion, they deserve the government they have, a government of frauds and deceptions, rigged up sciences and history..

Any one wanting honesty, integrity, and open government operating within the laws we have established is a nut case.. This government gets away with deceptions because of people like them, people in denial.

I know, I feel like I’m tucking tail, maybe taking things a tad bit too personal? But damn, I didn’t think I was being disrespectful to anyone! I can’t deal with them the way I deal with my students. Actually, I think my BD students are hella easier to deal with! I’ll still be around Todd. If you or anyone else here, Greg or Jes, want to contact me directly, I’m giving Tom permission to pass along my email. Don’t want to put it out here. Just… promise me no laughing at the email I use! I told you I started out as a wolfie…

Here ya go Todd, I thought Whiskey Mountain was on the res ? I’ve rode all of that country, seems to me Ramshorn to Whiskey should have 3500 elk..

Robert Hoskins Says:
May 11, 2010 at 8:18 PM

Ralph

Just got back from looking for elk up Whiskey Mountain in area 69 over the last few days. It’s one of the few winter range complexes around Wyoming that’s open during the winter to foot or horse traffic; only vehicles are banned. I spend a lot of time up there during the winter since the other winter ranges are closed to human presence. Anyway, I counted around 200. I guess the wolves missed ‘em, although it is a big mountain, as you know. However, that’s pretty much been the count each early spring, give or take ten or so, over the last decade. Not much change even though wolves have long been in the area, although there’s yet to be an established pack south of the Wind River. G&F is still handing out late season elk cow-calf tags in area 69, primarily to open up more winter range for Whiskey Mountain bighorn sheep. You don’t hear much about that. That’s usually where I hunt.

I think what’s driving the absurd claims by David Allen and the RMEF about wolves and elk is not so much financial competition with other hunting groups such as SFW but to meet demands by wealthy landowners/ranchers and outfitters to open up on wolves for political reasons. You know the propaganda game: a respected, conservative hunting organization has taken all it can take from wolves, blah blah blah.

Ranchers and big game outfitters–very often the same people–carry a lot more weight with the RMEF than do its rank and file members, because that’s where the money comes from. David Allen knows which side of his toast gets the butter, and it’s not the members’ side. We saw that clearly demonstrated early last year when the RMEF and the Montana Stockgrowers tried to pull a fast one with a secret conference in Billings to provide cover to livestock industry proposals to expand bison-style brucellosis management to Montana elk. Such a move surely is not in the interest of rank and file elk hunters, but what does the RMEF care as long as the big donors are happy?

We have to see wolf conservation primarily as a struggle of power politics and less as a culture war, although the culture war is what it’s about as far as the rank and file is concerned. But the rank and file is ignorant and that’s how the politicians want it. The culture war is bread and circuses for the masses.

Hunters in Wyoming for example have no understanding that the dual status classification of wolves has a political purpose–to keep the anti-fed flames burning and to sustain Stockgrower control over wildlife management in the State. Most of us who comment here understand that had Wyoming not gone with dual status, but declared wolves trophy game throughout the state in 2002, wolves would have been delisted successfully by 2005. But the fact is, the politicians, bound to the big landowners, don’t want wolves delisted. They benefit from continued political strife over wolves. People like David Allen are merely conforming to how things are. It’s not very admirable or courageous, but when you look for cowardice, you always find it at the top, no matter where the top is.

RH

Harley, just take your time, and when you feel like it, have your say. There’s nothing pushing you…Sometimes we all feel down about things, but then, as the Good Book says,
Isaiah 40:31
but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
Remember, it says, RENEW, not continue….sometimes we all grow weary of the struggle, but trusting in the strength that is above and within, will get us through…And it’s HIS strength, not just ours! Wait for it….it will come.

Lee- To be very honest with you, I am not sure I can post it here as I had to pay for it and as such am not sure if I would violate some copyright. But, here is a link to the public comment by Delane Kritsky.

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/02/23/echinococcus-granulosus-in-idaho-brought-by-wolves-and-here-to-stay/

The study I have was written by Ferron Anderson, who was mentioned in this email written by Mr. Kritsky, and as mentioned in the article he sampled coyotes and foxes in Idaho and never found any presence of this parasite in the state of Idaho. If it existed here in the past, it was eradicated with the wolves. It was found in central Utah, but it wasn’t found here until the wolves were brought it back. The claim made that the wolves were wormed and that relieves them of guilt is suspect at best as it has been shown that worming is anything but 100% successful. By trying to make claims that these studies show nothing, is exactly what this blog is about, basically denying anything that doesn’t fit the pro wolf agenda no matter how much evidence is shown. ID F&G is now warning people handling wolves of this danger, never seen that in the past now have we?
I guess the cats out of the bag.
Hmm, all these new issues…..and the only new player in the game is in fact the wolf, but, that must just be a coincidence………. not.

But, I tell you what Lee. I would be happy to put on my mask and gloves and pick you some huckleberries from an area highly populated by wolves and send them off to you. How willing would you be to feed them to your family knowing what we know now?

Harley- I sure hope I never said anything to offend you, it wasn’t my intention if I did. I actually appreciate someone willing to listen to both sides even if we may disagree on many points.

I have little respect for Ralphies crowd as they hide in their enclave and send Lee out to take a few on the chin while the others stay in the cave and cheer her on. Seems pretty cowardly to me.

But, here is my stance. I ignored this issue for far to long. In the beginning I wasn’t really opposed to the wolves here, I figured we could tolerate a couple of hundred wolves in the state without destroying or wildlife. Sure, we may have had to sacrifice some of our hunting, the numbers seemed reasonable and I am a reasonable person. My mistake was believing the other side was! Once they started skewing the numbers and the science and raising the numbers, my eyes became wide open. When we started seeing our elk herds crashing and they kept yelling we need even more wolves, I realized they had no intent of any compromise or reason. It became their way and only their way, period! When I started studying the issue and discovered the lies that were perpetuated right from the beginning, the laws that were broken and the intent of the agenda, I became pissed. We have allowed the destruction of 80 years of wildlife management. Management that I have supported both monetarily and through volunteering, and I am not going to stand for that. Then this issue of the public health issue came to light, and I became even more pissed, how dare they bring something like this to my state where my family and I reside, and when I found out that they were forewarned of it, I became dedicated to bring accountability to those that perpetuated it. I actually blame myself for being complacent and allowing the wool to be pulled over my eyes. All I can do now is work to expose the facts and turn the tide to correct this and bring the facts forward in any way I can. If that seems unreasonable……I suggest you look at the other side for a comparison in the level of unreasonable. It is impossible to convince people who rely on pure emotion to form their opinions, I have no delusion of ever convincing any of those people of anything, I just have to work to defeat them by exposing facts and trying to bring real management back to my state.

I hope you decide to stick around, even if you don’t necessarily understand where I am coming from.

Barry

No one here has offended me really Barry. Sometimes I shift a little in my seat when I read you guys going after someone new like T-bone. I’m kinda glad he stuck it out. I admire the passion and intensity behind what you are all saying. Maybe I just wish in my own little perfect world that everyone would get along but HA! that will not happen!!
I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is the people over there are so sure of their numbers that they won’t entertain the idea that maybe something should be done to help the herds recover. Get them healthier. They think they are healthy enough. They think hunters are all about getting the big game. They say the bull elk numbers are down and no one reports that. (I read that somewhere in one of the long rambles over there) I would think, if they were for real, I would get a response like, well ok, the numbers are better than what they are saying over at the BBB but… if they were down, if the herds were in crisis, then yes, something should be done to help build that back up so the wolves don’t go looking for other prey. They NEVER EVEN entertain that simple idea. An idea that says, hmm…. we may be wrong and if we are, sure we’ll take steps to help.
Ah well, what do I know? 15 years of Conflict Resolution inservices for High Schoolers is just showing through I think.

Todd,

I have Whiskey Mountain crossed up with Black Mountain.. I always wanted to hunt those big bucks on Black Mountain, and the surrounding bad lands, the Washakie Crowd own that and they say no. I see RH hunts the easy herd across the river on whiskey, we used to take the women folks up there for their cow.

I would love to see how Priest Maughan would handle a third world country given the chance to be it’s dictator.. I predict a very familiar conclusion would occur..

LMAO…

Robert Hoskins Says:
May 12, 2010 at 6:43 AM

Ralph

I’d say let him post and speak his piece. That’s the American way.

RH

Yeah, we have enough historical information to go off of to predict that outcome.

I sense old Ralph is in a predicament, some of his sheep seem to be wandering from the flock, I would bet it’s a calculated move. They’ll try to limit the discussion and then claim he refused the offer they made or couldn’t follow the rules of their ‘structured society’. They are a shallow thinking and predictable bunch. I would stand strong and basically demand the removal of the censorship they rely on over there, or else they can take up the discussion here. I wonder how long it’s been since Ralph has left his romper room and his delete button?

Greg- I hunted that Area for Muley’s, Mt Meadows was part of Thunder Head and that was part of Black Mt. You could ride thru those hills in a circle and see a different Buck every 20 min., I have never seen so many bbucks. There was a dry spell and the Deer all died off but are now making a come back but I haven’t been in there for a very long time.

As for the Wolf lover’s eating at our table for nothing ……it’s Wrong ! Congress is working on making the Oil Companies totally responsible for the Damages they cause and the Eco Freaks are all for it……..guess what ? They are opening the door for Western States to seek restitution for Damages from YSP , DOW, etc. I asked several times if videos posted on U Tube by DOW, Nat Geo etc. could be used as evidence ……..I think they can and I think they will, not only are the pics damning but the narrative’s speak to the Error in judgment made by “Idiot’s” !

There are no new video,s of Wolves killing on U Tube, the newest is 2009 and it is made from a 2008 Vid. Nat Geo has pulled out, which I find interesting especially when what is happening now in YSP is in fact closer to reality than all the Pawnee Wolf vids that they created. They saw what was happening and shut off the Camera!

What’s the difference between an Oil Spill and Wolves?????? NOTHING !!!!

T-Bone, which am I lacing up tight, my corset or my hiking boots? 😉 Just teasin’ ya! Needed a bit of humor. I agree that those over at the Ralph site lurk around here, how else could Jeff E know I’m a teacher and know my response to Lee? He speaks of my grammar and such. Interesting to find all the mistakes in his posts. That would really piss him off if I took it apart piece by piece. But see, I’m not that petty.

Harley, either is fine. Glad to see you’ve got your humor back. When it comes to supporting hunters on these issues there’s no gender, and I certainly can’t throw stones at spelling and grammar. Look forward to your input in the future. We’ve got a long row to hoe, and the more hoes the better. my attempt at humor. I don’t know how to do the little trick smiley face

So a person living near the Oregon coast with zero experience spotting, locating, seeing wolves, is going to help a person living in the eastern part of the U.S. gain a better insight into the wolf issue, rather than from those living in Central Idaho and Wyoming, now that is down right reasonable, not to mention intelligent. Not to mention she has no prior experience with elk herds, winter ranges, migration routes, prior to, and post the wolf experiment. OK.. She’s so smart, I’m thunderstruck..

Greg, I agree Chicago is in the eastern part ot the U.S. Most easterners think of it as being in the west. Different viewpoints but Chicago is where it always has been.

oh my bad, my lack of education is showing again. That wasn’t RH, that was actually Lee naming someone Harvey.

Harley, now I get the corset comment, my wife read my last post to you and told me if Harley was female she would be offended, She reread my attempt at humor to me and explained to me her interpretation. I am pretty naive at slang, please accept my apology.

Monomania and how it influences Ralph and his Block Button – if ever someone was a Monomaniac it’s Ralph. He edits comments with the work ethic of a Border Collie. Free Speech he avoids like Obama avoids Fox News, unless Ralph is in full throttle fabrication , unfortunately false hoods do not qualify as Free Speech beyond the confines of his Blog.

A bastion of Liberal Propaganda where Death By Reason will never occure. Old Liberals never die they just become marginalized .

Harley, your right sometimes we take what we have here for granted, our way of life is certainly something we need to fight to preserve. I know those of us in the fight appreciate your support . Please ask your friends and family to join in and help us preserve what we have, so if you or yours have the opportunity to join us, we have something to share. thanks

You folks may like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSGwCbP809I

I do not think the Ralf Lounge will however.

http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2010/05/11/logic-and-freedom/
But what happens when no one in the educational system even recognizes that the absence of logic courses is a problem? Teachers and administrators have themselves grown up without ever studying logic. Therefore, they don’t see the gaping hole in the curriculum.

The word I overlooked in the first paragraph is after “supposed”, STATISTICS…Sorry I missed it!

No logic equates to no reason, simple.

RH is way off the mark….he confuses the right “wing” of politics with totalitarianism, and I think fascism is a more apt description….(the far right wing) He neglects to mention, and glosses over the far left wing, which is communism….Both extremes are always at the door, and it would be good to know where they would take you!

JOIN “SAVE WESTERN WILDLIFE “-
WE SUPPLIED 10,000 ELK AND 300 BEEF TO FEED THE WOLVES. WE ARE ALSO PROUD TO SAY “DOW” HAS NEVER THANKED US ! AND REMEMBER 100% OF DOW’S MEMBERSHIP HAS “CRAPPED” IN YELLOWSTONE PARK OR ON IT !!! WE NEVER HAVE AND WE NEVER WILL !!! STOP POLLUTING OUR NATIONAL PARKS, JOIN “SWW” TODAY ! WE CARE AND WE CAN BACK IT UP!!! WE’RE LOGGERS NOT JOGGERS !!

RH- Is right ,Conservation includes the community……Dubois, Wyo. is a Community that is dieing because of Environmentalists skewed view of the World. RH is right to be paranoid ! When you feed a mans Life to the Wolves he is going to want more than just a free membership to Defenders of Wildlife. When you feed the Lives of men in three states to the Wolves you’re creating an Army.

When you are contaminating the forests with E-Granulosous, Environmentalists suddenly are standing shoulder to shoulder with Saddam Hussien – only we know what and where the WMD’s are.

Compensation for Oil Spills , which is compensation for an Environmental Disaster .Looks a good idea for all the states effected by Wolf Introduction. I can see no difference between an Oil Spill and Wolves.

The Sage Brush Rebellion never died it’s just been smoldering for awhile, waiting for the rest of America to wake up !