Environmentalists Sue To Stop Wolf Killings In Oregon

Home > Environmentalists Sue To Stop Wolf Killings In Oregon

Nothing new here really as the same environmental groups line up to line their pockets in another lawsuit filed against Oregon to stop killing wolves that are killing livestock. It’s the same repeated nonsense all aimed at playing on the emotions of people in order to draw attention to the groups whose ultimate goal is to seek money from those they can con.

There is one thing that I will point out that was written in a press release sent out by Center for Biological Diversity, Cascadia Wildlands, Hells Canyon Preservation Council and Oregon Wild. The reason I draw your attention to this is due to the shear ignorance of these people.

In May and early June, six cattle deaths were confirmed as wolf depredations. For comparison, in 2005 — the year the wolf plan was created — domestic dogs killed 700 sheep and cows in Oregon, according to the National Agricultural Statistics Service.

I would presume that these environmental mental midgets think the rest of the world is a stupid as they are but that’s not always the case. First of all, is it somehow different that domestic dogs kill sheep or other livestock instead of wolves? A dog is a dog is a dog. Wolves are wild dogs, many wolf hybrids. Livestock owners should be able to protect their property whether it is being destroyed by domestic dogs, wolves or any other predator. Kill the damned dogs.

Secondly, this claim about domestic dogs killing more things than wolves just doesn’t hold up to any intelligent scrutiny. As a conservative estimate, there are perhaps 15,000 to 30,000 wolves in all of the lower 48 states. This estimate may be high but I don’t want to be accused of low-balling. Compare that with the number of domestic dogs in the same areas – perhaps as many as several million. If there are thousands times the number of domestic dogs as wild dogs, it might stand to reason there would be a few more kills by dogs.

And again, not to be confused by some that I might favor the killing of wolves over domestic dogs, you’re wrong. Just like there are far too many wolves in some areas of the country, there are far too many dogs in all parts of the country. And just as importantly, a landowner/livestock owner should have the right to protect his property.

It is important to take a little bit of time and point out the deception that these groups attempt to foist on the general public in order to play on their emotions. If these groups exercise their First Amendment right to talk stupid, like comparing domestic dogs’ actions with wolves, one can assume much, if not all, of the rest of their stuff is as well based in truth.

Nothing new here. Time to move along.

Tom Remington

http://bluehorseoutfitters.com Jim Richards

If something is killing my stock and I can I will kill it. I’m not asking for permission.
Lee

Oregon editorial and comments:
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/07/wolves_in_oregon_dont_be_so_qu/3501/comments-4.html
Harley

Hey Lee… bah. Never mind. You’ll just give me another link. I was still waiting for your reply from the other post. I don’t know why I always think you’ll respond. Well… you do but usually not by answering a direct question with a direct answer.
Lee

Harley,

What I have been working on is a summary of the early wolves in the infamous Lolo Zone which includes hunting units 10 and 12 located primarily in the Lochsa and North Fork of the Clearwater rivers. If you looked at the graph you should noticed that there was an abrupt decline in elk harvest between 1989 and 1998. You said the hunters blame wolves and the wolf supporters blame the hunters – not true- mostly they, including me, blame first the changing habitat and second the unrealistic hunting regulations set by the IDFG.

There were 20 permits given to four commercial guides, 5 permits each, this spring-early summer to kill wolves in the Lolo Zone to coincide with the bear season. This closed recently, two wolves had been killed and 2 others shot but not retrieved so only between 10% and 20 of the desired IDFG kill occurred in the Lolo Zone; it doesn’t sound like the area has a high wolf population. If there are no elk why would they hang around?

Regarding wolves in central Idaho:

If you want to see the area of which I am writing check out the link at the end of the post.

In Jan. 1995, 4 wolves, transported by truck, were released at Corn Creek on the Main Salmon down stream from North Fork, Idaho and a week later 11 more were released at Indian Creek and Thomas Creek air strips on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River (MFSR). Thus there were 15 reintroduced wolves in central Idaho. Most of these stayed in the Salmon River area; one female, B15F, moved into the Kelly Creek area (in the Lolo Zone) and paired with a resident male wolf in late 1995. Another pair, B5M & B10F, formed the Selway pack, located miles south of the Lolo in the southern Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness and the northern part of the Frank Church Wilderness; they had two pups in 1996.

In Jan.1996, 20 wolves were released at Daggar Falls on the MFSR for a total of 35 wolves released in Idaho over two years.

By spring, 1996, there were 8 wolf pairs from the two years reintroduction and Idaho’s total population of reintroduced wolves was 41 at the end of 1996. Most of these were still in the Salmon River area – not the Lolo.

The Kelly Creek Pack in the Lolo zone, B-15-F and 9013M, had paired in 1995, produced their first litter of 2 pups in 1997, and raised their second litter in 1998. The Selway Pack consisted of 2 adults and 2 of their offspring from 1996 but they ranged south of the Lolo Zone. The Big Hole pair’s territory included area in Idaho- Montana around Lolo Pass; they had their first pups in 1998. There were 6 other wolves north of the Salmon in summer 1998. Thus, as best I could determine, there was a known total of 12, reintroduced adult wolves that could impact elk herds in the Lolo Zone north of the Samon River and south of the St. Joe River in the winter of 1997-98.By 1999 the number had increased to 33; 10 in each of the Big Hole and Kelly Creek, 5 in the Selway, and 8 in the Snow Peak in the St. Joe area.

There were too few wolves in the area during that period to cause the steep decline shown by the graph. Look at the graph if the elk harvest again and see if you can come up with a logical reason why there was such a precipitous decline in harvest numbers between 1989 and 1997; it certainly wasn’t wolves; they weren’t there.

This short effort today has taken 4 hours and about the same number a couple of days ago looking for VARIED sources of information. I wish I could just throw out opinion, speculation, and guesses; declare that the source is not worthy of considering, not presenting any facts, or won’t divulge them because . . . .; as Barry seems prone to do.

This link is a diagram of pack territories in central ID 2000; Just take a peek.

http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/idahowolfmap.htm
Greg Farber

Lee,

Take a camera and go hunt units 10 and 12 for wolves and see how well you do in that thick trash. As well prior to introducing the captured and man handled new wolves to Idaho if the habitat issues are a reality, as well the over permitting of elk hunting, then the introduction of this predator to the area is and obvious blunder on the part of F.W.S. and I.D.F.G. Thus wolves would have pushed these two units over into the crash which is evident at this time. If there are not the high numbers of wolves in units 10 and 12 at this time, that does not mean the higher numbers of wolves were not there previously. You damn well know it so quit trying to bullshit people. i have hunted those units with bow, I could not imagine hunting them with a scoped rifle. The data you are relying is worthless Monday morning armchair crap, Woulda coulda shoulda ! The ultimate failure was allowing wolves to enter those areas and finish off elk herds walking and already thin line. Why do you never point that out ? People and wolves did it. Your Perfect infallible scientists did it, and your mutts helped push those elk over into herd collapse.. So why put them there ??????? DUH !!!
Greg Farber

Units 10 and 12 are some of the rudest elk hunting in the state.. I’ve literally tripped over white tail deer in there. Imagine trying to find wolves in that trash.. Lee, you blow my mind.
Barry

Lee- perhaps you could provide the required Idaho state permits that are required to show a definitive record of exactly how many wolves they actually released, or perhaps the 3-177 forms that show an exact number of wolves imported, or some evidence that they never planted more elsewhere, anything?

Or perhaps a study showing real habitat problems like low birth weights on calves or low birth percentages, starvation mortality, anything? I find it interesting that calf weights were good, birth rates were good, pregnancy rates were good, mortality rates from non wolf factors were not rising, cow health was good, yep, sounds like a habitat issue to me…………not.

I wont hold my breath, but I have seen the studies that show otherwise. You keep grasping at your straws, and promoting your lies.

And what the hell kind of habitat change could have taken place in that short of a period to create such a drop? Habitat just doesn’t change that fast without some catastrophic event and I don’t remember any volcanoes or oil spills down there during that time. And forest fires don’t count as they usually result in a higher population trend and they never played into that time frame anyway. Your attempts to try and take the heat off the real cause is contemptuous at best, and down right dishonest at the root. there was simply one one new factor, the wolf, and you just can’t accept the fact that they don’t bring any good to an ecosystem. I spend a relatively large amount of time in unit 10, and I can, and could of then, showed you vast amounts of knee high grass, clean water and ample cover.

Once again, you expect us to believe information provided by known liars and cons with an agenda. You do realize that Ed Bangs and Don Clower and others have admitted to lying to the public and seen no problem with it if it served their goals. Now you want us to believe anything they have to say, give me a break. They have some serious questions to answer before they ever hold any validity again.

Indeed, you have one point, F&G does hold some culpability, but your wolf is the sole factor in the final crash and the inability to allow recovery. Like I have stated before, Conely and his pro wolf agenda purposely set out to drive those numbers down for the simple reason of allowing ideologues like you to divert from the real issue. It was a well played deception, but it’s been exposed now sweetheart, no more claiming it as ‘the’ cause. Without the wolf, and a reduction in cow tags, those units would have recovered just fine. If you would like me to prove it, I would gladly do that, we just need to rid the area the root cause.

And as far as your ‘claimed’ numbers, I suppose you buy the propaganda of the 850 number too.
Barry

Greg- It was once stated by many hunters, that anyone capable of being consistently successful hunting elk in those areas could kill an elk anywhere on this planet. Rude is perhaps the best description I have heard to date. We use to list the draws, canyons,and ridges as three point or four point slopes, just depending on how many appendages you need to have in contact with the ground at all times to keep from sliding backwards. Brush so thick I have had herds of cows walk past me so close I could have touched them with my gun barrel and you could smell a rutting bull and not catch even a glimpse of him. And yet Lee knows exactly how many wolves lived there, pretty amazing huh?
http://blackbear MikeL

With the wolves in tht region now the elk have no chance of increasig their numbers. If you want to build the herds after tough winters and so forth you need a high calf crop. Bears can be hard on calves but only for a short time, wolves however just knock the crap out of any recruitment possible. As for me, I’m killing the next son-of-bitch wolf I see on my property. They’ve killed all but one calf and he probably won’t last long. I had 3 whitetail bucks on the trail cam at the water hole this week and everyone of them looks like their anorexic. Ribs are showing and they look horrible. Any ideas on this one Greg or Barry? Maybe running to hard from the pack or nerves perhaps?
Greg Farber

Barry,

I purposely hunt trash, ( bad habitat, ha ha ha) due to having the most success bagging elk in those places. I’ve found bulls laying up in thick cover, plenty of feed, and often within 70 yards of a water source. The honey hole I call em, they move into those holes post rut and they don’t move until snow pushes em out. Now of course wolves have ruined that rest up time for the majority of those bulls, the few that are left any how.

MikeD,

Sounds familiar, deer starving and running, not being allowed to spend quality time browsing. A week ago I watched four wolves bust into 25-30 Antelope and run em off a ridge to hell and gone.. Not much elk to look around here any longer and the deer are worse..

I’m glassing at 7000′ over quite a bit of open ground, I’m using the Swarovfski 20×60 and the Leupold 12×40 spotters.. In two controlled hunt units, 48 and 44. Compared to doing this 17 years ago what I am seeing is lands almost void of game..

I’m packing my Kimber Montana 8400 all the time now, WSM 7mm with 4.5 to 14 Leupold 30 mil.. 50 objective.. I’m done screwing around. These mental midgets are not credible, especially the ones from afar relying on paper and ink projected opinions for their arguments, totally worthless garbage..
Greg Farber

These so called I.D.F.G. estimations of those units are worthless, those clowns couldn’t tell us how many trees are in hunt units 10 and 12, trees are standing still, how the hell can they be accurate when it comes to roving elk herds. They can’t. PERIOD. Just more free funds trough feeder liars trying to justify their worthless existence, that includes public schools teachers as well.
http://bluehorseoutfitters.com Jim Richards

There is no way in hell that the fish and game can come even remotely close to a accurate count on elk or deer and they have no clue how many bears are out there. This is and has always been a on going joke.
I put absolutely no stock in there estimates what so ever.
Harley

Lee
I appreciate the effort you put into that detailed explanation. It only goes to prove that the elk numbers are down. For whatever reasons. And I can agree that other factors besides wolves and hunting can wreak havoc on any given population. But see, I think, without even being there, I think I tend to believe people like T-bone and Greg and Barry and MikeL when they talk about seeing the wolf kills and attesting to the number in the herds going down. I don’t think that because so few wolves were killed means that there are few wolves there. I’ve never hunted but I would think it’s pretty damn difficult to hunt down a predator. Or is the point that you are trying to make that because so few were killed, it really didn’t have an impact on the herds one way or another?
Anyway, things to ponder and consider. Again, thank you for the time and effort it took you.
TLM

So if an elk herd is in decline due to habitat, how the heck does anyone think that adding predators to the situation will do anything other than pull the elk down further? Boggles the mind.

Just like protecting wolves when caribou are in decline, do we let the wolves eat the last of the endangered prey?
Barry

TLM – yes, yes, that’s exactly what we do. And you can bet your last dollar that fools like Lee will still be claiming some other reason. Denial of 80 years of sound management takes some real tenacity. to hell with the facts, lets latch onto some ignorant theory that is proving itself just that, ignorant.

MikeD, it is what we are seeing too, run ragged year around. One thing I have noticed in the few moose I have come across is that they are getting really aggressive. Not a trait that will serve them well when confronted by wolves. And perhaps that is why we are seeing so few this year.
Barry

Greg – what’s even worse is that they used 600% of sighted elk pre plant to justify their program, along with underestimating wolf kills by 100%. Bangs’ statement that we had hundreds of thousands of ungulates in central Idaho makes me want to dip the ass in honey and tie him up to a bacon tree. It was just an outrageous lie from beginning to end. I would love nothing more than to see him get his day in court.

My last words to him would be “Ed you are now in jail, and you are here to stay. Don’t worry about your cell mate Bubba, he has thousands of others to prey on, I am sure you’ll be just fine.”
Greg Farber

TLM,

Idaho has never been to ungulate carrying capacity since the State government, backed by hunters of course, reintroduced elk. The habitat in Idaho has never been a problem. 50+ million acres and 100,000 plus elk.. Habitat Shmabitat..

I’m heading into Sulpher Creek shortly.. Just South of you. A little fishing and gold panning.. I’ve had wolves come right up to me in there..
Greg Farber

Barry,

I would like to strap a propane to tank ti his back as well, nozzle just cracked open slightly.. Bring in them bears pronto like.. ha ha..

He’ll get his just due one fine day.. These clowns are not getting away with any of their lies..
Barry

Harley- i am not here, nor do I spend far to much of my life fighting this to pull anyone’s leg, that’s just not how I roll. But I am very tired of people who have never been here or are rarely here promoting BS. Here is a fact, and one I can live with, they are here and we aren’t going to get rid of them, ever. They could open trapping and hunting year around and we would never get rid of them. We never got rid of them before! In spite of government bounty’s, professional hunters and the liberal use of poison for decades. There were still always wolves in Idaho. These people who think their grand predator needs pampering and watching over, actually know little of the animal they claim an emotional bound to. The denial of science is sickening, the dismissal of factual information is nothing more than people not wanting to open their eyes and see reality. They desire an environment that is void of any death that isn’t beckoned out by the disease ridden mutt, and they want ranchers off ‘their’ land, and they want hunters (the only controllable predator) run off and their guns taken away. They have little concern for anything other than humans on foot and anyone who doesn’t promote their government agenda.

I do appreciate you being a person of reason.
Harley

See this is the thing that really…. really bothers me. This isn’t just an issue of, ‘oh the wolves deserve to come back to the west’ or whatever the original thought was. This issue is directly affecting people’s livelihoods. And in almost every case, it seems like these issues are being decided by people who don’t even live in the area and if they do, they are being influenced by those who don’t live there! Barry, I get this in education. I get someone in my state capital deciding what’s best in the classroom by someone who hasn’t been in a classroom since they graduated! I well understand the frustration, if only because I’ve had it from a different source.
http://bluehorseoutfitters.com Jim Richards

Harley,
This is what the problem has always been. People who live in the east or west coast telling us how to live here in the rockies and most have never even been here. Big money and little brains trying to tell us how to live with their wolves when it’s our stock being eaten and our children in danger and our way of life being threatened as well as our livlihood. Wouldn’t you be pissed?
Harley

Damn straight I’d be pissed Jim!
Lee

Harley
“Lee
I appreciate the effort you put into that detailed explanation. It only goes to prove that the elk numbers are down. For whatever reasons.”

I asked YOU to evaluate why the elk numbers were down over the years mentioned’ not just form an opinion based on what others say without offering any data.
Lee

Barry

You may have heard this story long ago but I feel it deserves repeating:

A man had just gotten married and was taking his new bride to their home in a carraige. At a road crossing a new fangled car was coming from the left and the horse balked and swerved to the right. The man said that is number one. Shortly there after they came to a railroad crossing and the horse refused to cross the tracks, that is number two the driver informed the horse. Farther up the road a dog ran after the carriage and the horse reared, the man pulled out his gun and shot the horse. His wife said that was a bit severe, her husband reponded that is number one.

Don’t call me “Sweetheart”, that was number three; and I won’t start calling you “Honey”.
Lee

Harley
I think that the wolves may have changed the manner in which some people hunt in Idaho but I seriously doubt that they are affecting Greg’s livelihood: in his 50s, a retired plummer, with a wife who is a veternarian and he spends most of his time and money wandering around the central wilds of Idaho looking for fun, game, fish, and gold. He is hardly suffering.

Scott Rockholm has a site up looking for donations to support his elimination of wolves in Idaho. I certainly hope you check it out before making or not a donation.

Barry lives in northern Idaho (can”t remember if it is Post Falls or – but still quite a distance from hunting zone 10-12 – so why would he claim to spend a lot of time in the Lolo area when the hunting is so poor – same for Greg and his bow hunting in the brush.

“This issue is directly affecting people’s livelihoods” My relates in the Clearwater drainage of Idaho have gotten an elk and deer every year since they have lived there (1970). More data would help clear the issue up. And Harley, as I have said several times before, you will believe what you want regardless of the evidence – you are an emotional person – not a reasonable one. This is not intended as an insult – the world needs both kinds, but not in wolf management.
Greg Farber

Lee,

Do you have documented proof of the success of your relates ? Other wise this is just more opinion based on your eye sight and hearing based on what they have claimed to you, thus since my experiences are not considered valid data which are based on eye sight and hearing, along with experience in the mountains, especially those areas I have frequented since a boy, neither are yours..

I am three hours from units 10 and 12.. Of course I have not bothered with those hunting spots for years now.. As usual you ignore valid points and twist our words to some sordid benefit you feel suits your self.. As I have said before, people like you are the wolves worst enemy.

I see WWP and Priest Maughan are begging for donations as well, for the destruction of elk so as to justify the destruction on my right to take. I really do not understand why you persist in spewing your filth here, you are wasting your time.
Harley

Lee, You didn’t really ask me anything. You explained a lot, of which I expressed my appreciation for the hard work you put into that. Then you jump down my damn throat.
When I said, for whatever reason, I wasn’t implying wolves. I was implying, for whatever reason. There are lots of different extenuating circumstances as to why herds drop off. A bad winter. A bad infestation of tics. Over hunting. Too many predators. Disease. Not enough grazing. Pick one! Or pick all. All I see are numbers dropping off on charts. it doesn’t say that maybe… they starved to death. Or they were over hunted by whatever, man or beast. It just shows the numbers dropping.
I put the question out there a while back and I thought, I could be wrong now, but I thought that the general consensus was that no one here really wants to eliminate the wolf. Even Greg! He’s stated that numerous times! But a lot of people here feel as if their back is against the wall. I see that in what they say, how they write! Now…saying that, I will admit I haven’t seen Rockholm’s site so I can’t speak for him as far as him wanting the wolves completely gone. And I don’t donate money to that sort of thing, don’t worry. Nor would I donate it to defenders of wildlife either. I don’t have the money to toss as stuff like that.
TLM

And where are the mythical magical wolf tourism dollars that are said to be enriching local economies? We have yet to see even one dollar. Wolf tourists don’t want to leave pavement – they want Jellystone with habituated animals they can see from the comfort of their vehicles. Since this is how they “recreate” – that is how they must view hunters? (based upon the anti hunting comments I’ve seen posted.)
Lee

Greg
About 4 years ago I helped clean meat from bones of an elk that was killed on the north side of the Clearwater river above Orofino by my sister in law. It delayed going on a planned trip into the Grave Peak area in the Selwa-Bitterroot area for a day. Of course this is also hearsay – so what proof do you have af all the critters you have seen and killed? I don’t note that you have ever documented anything with photos – on occasion you have threatened or suggested that others do so.

When on Google Earth I notice that Ralph Maughan has lots of photos for numerous, remote areas in the Rockies. You can’t operate a camera? Talk a lot and never been there?

And I have yet to see any of the documented proof of all the wolves you see all over Idaho – just take your camera and do it! A picture is worth — – - -

Then I might start to believe.
Barry

Lee- so I take it from your dodge, you have none of that information. I am not surprised. The 3-177 forms are a federally required form, even for USFWS employee’s, anytime an animal is imported into the states, they are also public record. I asked for them, they don’t exist. Makes me wonder if not filling them out is a lesser crime that falsifying them. But either way, the person responsible needs to be held accountable. Or do you support violations of law to serve the end agenda?

And why do you still keep bringing Ralph up? He is meaningless as long as he hides behind his delete button, the man is a coward. I gave him a fair chance, he slithered off into the safety of his closed off little hidey hole. He fears the real truth and the real facts.

And frankly Lee, I could care less what you call me. I have been called far worse by far better people than you or anything you could come up with.
Barry

ROFL, you ask why I would wander so far away? Area 10 is only a few hours away Lee. I use to hunt 10, 10A and 12 extensively along with all of the Panhandle. That was an awesome attempt at diversion.
Here are the facts, I run my old haunts to check out the changes in person. I don’t make claims of information I get from someone else. I know those area’s summer ranges, winter ranges, breeding grounds and calving grounds like the back of my hand. Here is some real eye witness reality for you. I know where the elk are nowadays, what’s left is easy to find. They hang in the lowlands and around people extensively. The elk along the CDA and St. Joe rivers are still down on the river Lee, in mid JULY! The summer range grass is drying out and going to waste. I just spent three days roaming one of the old premier summer ranges, not one elk seen, and I am talking about a basically roadless area that you can see for miles. Lots of ungrazed grass, lots of old wolf sign, a few real old elk tracks and nary an animal. The lie that elk have been moved by wolves, is just that, another manufactured lie. Fact is, they are gone. I would estimate we have lost very close to 50% of our pre wolf elk. From 125K to probably around 60K. And yes, I know F&G is still trying to claim 100K, but that’s also a complete fallacy.

I guess I could ask why some old dried up woman from the Oregon coast spends so much time and money sticking her nose in my states business too. And that question is one hell of a lot more valid than your claims of why I would drive a few hours to seek the truth.

And I have never heard Rockholm ever seek to rid our state of anything but invasive species. And what, you have an issue with the side of truth having a non profit too? You people have no idea what’s coming at you, and I am loving it.
Greg Farber

Lee,

My several photo albums filled with print pics from my two PENTAX ME SUPERS are here, I do not have the scanner I need to transfer them to a file within my PC, and I am also concerned with privacy and ownership issues. Once I wore out my second Pentax ME Super I went with the Pentax ZX-60, still 35mm print, of course i own a Canon power shot S3IS digital, but zoom capacity does not compare to the ZX-60 and the lens set up I used with it.. I say used because I stopped packing the camera, especially while hunting, I do not appreciate the weight.. You see unlike most folks some of us folks get into some pretty extreme off trail hiking, miles off trail.. Even before the wolf issue reached maximum pressure on the elk or deer the best hunting, or scouting was at a bare minimum four miles away from established trails.. Those cameras take up a lot of space which is better used for food. I still managed to accumulate a few thousand photographs.. But often times seeing the wolf and photoing the wolf are two very different things. I am convinced I need a $3000.00 head mounted video cam set up in order to catch them on film in the real wilds I frequent, which cannot be compared to the YNP zoo experience. Pictures will not change you, and frankly I don’t want to change you, I have confidence the day will arrive when you will be able to look back upon these exchanges and you will realize you believed the wrong people, misplaced your trust.. I think you are incapable of that type of honesty in the flesh.
TLM

City folks pack around those little gizmos that are tele-phones and cameras and little text messages and music players and even tele-visons! Since they always have that gizmo in their hand they can poke a button and take photos Johnny on the spot. (That is if they are aware enough of their surroundings to see something that is not on the little computer screen. ) I’ve noticed that flatlanders are amazed that we don’t have a gizmo stuck to our hand to photo every thing we see. I know its hard to believe, but those little gizmos don’t work up here (its kind of funny to watch people try and use them tho.) Oh and once the batteries run out, the little GPS don’t work no more and the people get lost in the forest and can’t call 911 for help. I’m glad the gizmos don’t work up here, the roads take all of your attention, and yakking on your gizmo can be hazardous to our safety. No photos of the wolves, those are etched into our minds, we do have lots of photos of skinny elk hanging around town. Here is one taken a few years ago when the wolves got after our friend’s horses – Buttermilk survived, but they got her half brother and eventually the guard donkey – (had his guts pulled out and partially eaten -he was still alive when found.)

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/325/s5030358and7.jpg
Buttermilk
Tom Remington

Dang! Ouch! Did you take that picture with your “gizmo” TLM? Bwahahahahahaha
Harley

Oh wow… that poor filly! Was there any residual lameness from that? Wow…
Lee

Some time back I asked Greg if “1divided by 0 = 0 divided by 1; and to explain his response. He never answered. Perhaps someone else could help him out? This was after an exchange regarding prime numbers.
Harley

Wow Lee. I think that Greg gave you a rather nice compliment a few posts back. At least thats what it seemed like to me. Not his usual type of post. Seems like you are bent and determined to continue with the crap. That speaks to your character I think.
Lee

Harley
From Harley “Wow Lee. I think that Greg gave you a rather nice compliment a few posts back. At least thats what it seemed like to me. Not his usual type of post. Seems like you are bent and determined to continue with the crap. That speaks to your character I think.”
Harley
Could you give a quote of the “rather nice complement” that you feel Greg gave me? Was it the “I think you are incapable of that type of honesty in the flesh.” statement? (Greg Farber on July 16th, 2010 8:51 am ) Or how many post back do I need to go?

And with what “crap” am I continuing? To which part of my character are you speaking? Try to be specific. I don’t like guessing.
Harley

Bugger off Lee.
ar

Now, Lee. You know how greg has been a gentleman since he has never put you totally in your place. He’s been kind, very kind in that respect. Other than that, you aim to disrespect, lie, cheat and steel and want accountability for horse-shit. So, it goes again, you raise the dander on the backs of necks and ultimately have people really pissed off at you for your arrogant ignorance or deliberate deceit – fishing for usual readers to wallow in your mire?

You caught one.
Greg Farber

The Truth will win in the end, and there is nothing the super elite at the top of the Pyramid power structure conspiratorial scheme, can do to stop all eventually understanding that truth which they loathe and have attempted to hide from the majority of mankind for centuries, just look at the FRN fake fiat dollar bill, on the back you have a pyramid, and eye, notice the capstone is not resting on the pyramid in the picture, Their New World Order Globalist Empire under the Temporal Power of the Pontifus Maximus Pope of Rome is not finished, but they are working diligently to finish their Scheme and when they do freedom for mankind is lost for a time, those conspirators are treating this planet as if it is their ranch and we are their cattle. Looking the other way and mocking people who recognize this scheme such as myself solves nothing, their still doing it, it is of Biblical proportions, the foundation for the resources theft and fake protection via sabotage to justify the environmentalist protections comes straight from their think tanks. It be a con job, just another pyramid scheme. These bastards have so mind screwed mankind only the conclusion of Biblical prophecy will stop them. If that be another hoax then mankind and this planet are doomed. It is not a hoax, but i understand some one like lee not wanting to put forth the effort to try and find out, it is very hard work if one does not wish to take it on faith alone and they decide to go the route of translation research, very boring, it was not something I enjoyed, nor did I enjoy the massive research involved with the political science, historical, masonic hermetic, Qabbalistic and Rosacrucian Symbolical philosophy and hidden languages used to cover up their movement. Every one uses symbols daily, you are reading symbols right now. Like I’ve said in the past, I have over 3000 books, mostly suppressed, I have collected thousands of Congressional Globes, Annals and Records of Congress. Very boring work. I hate it, and I will soon stop.. The Devine Conspiracy is a reality. I feel sorry for people like Barbara because they either are mislead, or intentionally mislead, either way they are 100% deceived people. That is not easy for some people to except, and the majority of them never will except it, and seek real truth. But they are going to know the truth, and shortly. It’s just the way it is.
Harley

My apologies to everyone else here. I don’t normally let things like that get to me enough to post something like that, despite the fact that I’m, as Lee puts it, emotional. It’s the ‘superior than thou’ attitude that just rankles deep.
Lee, I’m not going to give you a quote. The tone in Greg’s previous post seemed pretty subdued. He’s actually giving you some credit to being smart enough to figure things out. People can be misled. You think I’m misled. The only difference is that Greg thinks you have the capability of being smart enough to figure it out. I’d say, coming from Greg, that’s a compliment. And you come back with something about math in a former post from awhile back. Is this some sort of attempt to prove you’re smarter than Greg? Book learning is better? I guess I have a problem with people who appear to be cramming their intellect in someone’s else’s face.
Anyway, enjoy yourself. I’m gone for a week, you won’t have to worry about my emotional responses.
Greg Farber

She don’t like guessing yet she assumes information which is of no interest to her is invalid and anyone going into those topics are out of their minds, sounds like guessing to me. Trusting governmental agencies sciences which cannot even balance their own checking accounts is pretty dumb in my book.
TLM

That photo of Buttermilk was taken by her owner and I was allowed to download a copy off the camera. Its not a combo phone gizmo, just a little digital camera he got to document the injuries. The father of this mule was the guard donkey, and between him and the mother they fought off the wolves and saved the baby. Tracks don’t lie. The other young mule wasn’t so lucky, and not a scrap of him was ever found. We pooled out all our vet supplies and the owner doctored the baby. I don’t know her fate, she was in with a bunch on a 3000 acre winter pasture last year, and wolves chased them on an icy day and several fell off the mountain and died. I hate to think we fought to save her and ultimately the wolves would win. I had her half sister, orphaned in 2005 – bottle raised her, and gave her to an outfitter last year to get her out of wolf country.
Barry

Lee- I have no idea why you think it relevant to ask some math question here, and I won’t qualify it with a response. Although it seems every time you are asked a direct question, as I asked you above, you dodge. What you don’t understand, to anyone outside of your circle of nutters, that exposes you. Which is exactly why I ask them.

I find it amazing how those ideologues that hole up in their moderated enclaves and protected teachers lounges have no real concept of how that outside world interprets information. There are few that are less in touch with reality that the mere 20% that consider themselves progressive or academics. You fit that bill to a tee.
Greg Farber

Actually concerning the mathematics in question in which I can provide the answer yet will not due to the need to post the entire book concerning the new technique which Lee refuses to acknowledge in order to understand the hidden secret involved in the primes numbers which changes the process we know which is taught by people like her. The author strictly forbids posting the booklet, as well he now has a second booklet on the subject. This information is not shared in the public schools system, a handful of physicists inside and outside of NASA know of this direct propagation of the prime numbers. It is funny because the author of the booklet warns that a conversation of the topic will lead to exactly the type of attitude and innuendo displayed by Lee, they cannot handle the fact that their are unsolved mysteries in the Mathematics field. I have to admit I did not expect her display of total stupidity, just simply because she is so certain she has cornered me when in fact she has cornered herself. Obviously the oldest problem in mathematics should be well known to her and these scientists show that it has been solved with these two DVDs and booklets. The other funny thing is I gave the first book to a good friend, a walking calculator, there is no math this man cannot do with his mind and pencil and pad, I thought for sure he could debunk McCanney, and he rose to the challenge, only to end up amazed and agreeing with McCanney.. Unfortunately Lee is stuck in the world is one huge accidental coincidence paradigm and even mathematics proves her wrong. It’s like I’ve said before, it takes all of the books and DVDs on the topic to help understand where these mathematicians are going and showing with this study. Obviously our very honest and forthright government does not want us to know this stuff, imagine that. Oh the horror of it all, There is a GOD above the little peons ruling this planet, and they hate him so.
Greg Farber

I should mention that I thought the last time we had our trivial pursuits discussion concerning McCanneys book, and the lengthy explanations I provided about the book, and DVD, the book comes with a DVD with full instructions on the process of the new model, of course Lee keeps spewing forth this silly question that a third grader can answer, yet I meant to post a couple links from mathematicians blogs which have and explanation and answer for the question she keeps insinuating I cannot answer. The question and answer has nothing to do with McCanneys formula which is copy righted. How dumb is that ?
Lee

Barry
Are you going to buy this DVD to find the answer to this very difficult mathematical problem?

The reason it is relevant is because Greg didn’t answer the question some time back; couldn’t, didn’t. Wants me to waste money on a DVD.

Similar to his not understanding that some elements have only one isotope and therefore can not be modified by science; I think that was in the chemtrails discussion.

And that there are no volcanic crater lakes in the Idaho batholith country. He was going to look for his source.

He also offered disnformation regarding the rapid cooling of granite in the Idaho batholith and yet it still has large crystals. Magma that cools quickly has small crystals of minerals, those that cool slowly have larger crystals, These are not ideas held by government “whackos” but are accepted by all geologists.

He is scientifically illiterate. However, he does know a lot about the Idaho back country and animals that live there – with perhaps a bit of bias.
Barry

Lee- LOL, a word of warning, it is foolish to under estimate an opponent, just sayin…….

But, again, you complain about others not answering questions, yet have completely ignored the very relevant ones that were presented to you right here, on topic.
Greg Farber

I frequent a lake quite often in the Church which sits in the top of a mountain which appears to have been blown outwards, of all the places I’ve been in those two Wilderness Areas it is the only location which gives me that impression. It could have been a massive collapse also. The idea that it was a volcanic event was suggested to me by a friend working for the Forest Service who also claimed the Forest Service was responsible for landing a helicopter on the lake and a thousand foot of line was lowered into the lake with no contact being made with the bottom of the lake. The lake has and underwater inlet. So I was relying on a government source for my belief of a volcanic type scenario at this particular lake. Oh the irony of it all, a young lad mislead by another G man while fishing. I suppose I could be little biased about another resource which I helped to pay for being ruined by bad science and out right stolen from us which is visibly obvious by USING AND ANIMAL FOR POLITICAL GAINS. I have no doubt that dodger Lee is illiterate when the discussion turns Biblical, historical, and political concerning world events and why they happened and are happening still. It is all just a big coincidence. Of course Physicist and Mathematician James McCanney would have a thing or two to say about Lee’s mathematical expertise. When the government hates a scientist I am very interested in why.
Greg Farber

Barry,

These people of Ralph’s ilk believe they are creating and evolved historical event in human history, correcting mistakes by mankind by returning the planet to its original setting. Repairing some damage based on the theory they believe in. The idea of this folly they have bought into comes from the same damn elite think tanks which pushed humanity into the direction of the mistakes these people would repair.

This Globalism idea is older than all of us who reply here. Actually both sides, or all sides per say have been sabotaged in several ways, education, actions, political, scientific.. It’s just like blaming the loggers and logging for the decisions made by those handing out the permits and guide lines of how to go logging in the forest and who controlled the loggers actions..

The government. Get people to make mistakes and we can take that industry or activity away from them, for a purpose of more control over all. The wolf and hunting are no different. We know why they brought this wolf agenda forth. To kill hunting by man and it is working perfectly. The games being played with mankind’s heads are to many to list, but it all ends up in somebody having centralized control over mankind. One group of owners CON-vincing their dupes to think they thought it up and getting them to install it.. How cute those little Maughanites are in all that glory they seek protecting mother earth from us takers. Just another group of asshole dictators who would love to invade my private property and punish me for crimes against their idol, momma earth.

I’ve personally witnessed arguments between logging contractors and the Forest Service Field Supervisor in a logging camp concerning how to tackle a problem. The G man ended up being the fool, yet no one ever hears about it. It was those nasty loggers faults.. If the contractor did any thing not authorized by the G men the contractor would be fired and replaced with a competitor, losing his contract.. No matter the field of action, government is the saboteur..

The wolf is no different.
Barry

Greg- That’s a very good rundown. I too have witnessed the idiocy of the government employee in dozens of those types of situations. The current oil spill is yet another perfect example, everything is fine and dandy with those in charge of overseeing it, until something goes wrong, when the finger pointing starts it always seems to be away from those who were legally responsible for making the decisions, the government. Lee is yet another shallow thinking and mentally corrupted individual, just another shill, thinking they will take charge, but in fact will be the first to be disposed of. I find it intriguing that these ‘educated’ elites actually believe that history will somehow NOT repeat itself this time.

I find it funny that she won’t just come out and admit that she could care less about the laws that were violated, as I’ll bet she believes the end justifies the means. Usually these egotistical marxist have no problem just spitting that out, and her dodging says the same thing anyway.
Greg Farber

Brains in chains, the perfect slave.
TLM

Now the Center for Biological Diversity is suing to have wolves returned to most of the lower 48 before the can be delisted anywhere.

This is not fair to Idaho, and the other states that have a fully recovered population and a surplus. Idaho offered the surplus wolves to other states – not one taker.
Greg Farber

We need to sue to have the United Nations Treatise and fake Biological Diversity, Sustainable Development, Smart Growth for no one except elitists removed from all fifty states of these united states before the coming second Civil War which is it’s only purpose comes to fruition and millions die violent deaths in this nation due to it, this madness is nothing more than self inflicted eugenics.
Lee

One of the most misused cliches is ” I could care less”. It is a prevalent error on the part of both sides of any arguemant. The phrase should usually be “couldn’t care less” unless you could care less. Think about it.

http://incompetech.com/gallimaufry/care_less.html
Greg Farber

We knows you Priest maughan wolf loving evolved knuckle draggers are incapable of caring for truth, You could possibly lower your level of caring a bit I have no doubt, but I realize you are some what south of whale shit now. Think about it !

Barry is right, you could care less, perhaps you will care less once you stop breathing. We already know you do not care at all, thus you couldn’t care less than you already do.

We know Lee, thanks for pointing out that you don’t give two shits about Idahoans impacted by wolves and federal and environmentalist lies. We get the sublimal insult just fine.

See ya around knuckle dragger.
Barry

ROFL, I love how when Lee is handed her ass with factual information, she attempts to dodge with a grammar lesson none the less. So typical.

Just as Greg pointed out above, it is a moot point that keeps academics busy arguing their own ridiculousness. Served up only to distract from the fact she can not argue a valid point for this wolf debacle outside of her censored site. Welcome to the real world Lee, the teachers lounge is that way ————>
Barry

Greg, you might be interested in the conversation I was having with several politicians the other night. they are working on a frontal attack that removes excessive federal theft of state lands on a constitutional argument of limiting a states ability to create adequate and potential representation. It sounded pretty interesting.
Spurwing Plover

Maybe a whole pack of wolves should be introduced to the big city where these wackos live and allow them to let these animals to eat their pets and eventiualy their kids becuase these eco-wackos are just plain rediculous
Harley

Scuse me! I happen to live near a big city and though I do like wolves, not in my backyard please!! There isn’t enough room for them here! Although… that might take care of the coyote problem…

Nope, not worth it! I see all the ‘fun’ you guys have out west with them. No thank you…
Barry

Well…..geeze……..thanks Harley!

But I have to say, I sure don’t blame you.
Harley

I tell ya what Barry, let’s swap. You can take ALL the gang bangers and I’ll take the wolves!
Greg Farber

I think we should take the gang bangers hunting for wolves.
Harley

Perfect! I love that idea! You’re good Greg!
Barry

Harley

Gang bangers are nothing more than the governments tool to use against the people that live in urban areas in the same way wolves are used against rural folks.

Both are protected by the government to be used against you so that you will willingly or unwillingly give up your freedoms.

Environmentalists Sue To Stop Wolf Killings In Oregon

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